NEVER say blacks will do worse at elite colleges...

Applying to College
181

<p>
[quote]
Like the system in the UCs huh....? The standards they set created a sharp decline in some races and ethnicites and a sharp incline in others. Is this, then, to you, 'racism'?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You should be careful about invoking instances that you're not qualified to speak about, like that time you brought up the Caltech example.</p>

<p>fabrizio has explicitly stated that enrollment of ALL minority ethnicities in the UC system shot up as a result of the state's Prop 209. I think what you meant to say was that enrollment of blacks and such fell at UC Berkeley and/or UCLA. I'm pretty sure that's what you meant to say. Am I right?</p>

182

<p>For URMS, the standard for performance is lower. The most simplistic example of unfairness is indeed the way colleges accept lower standardized score results for URM. There is no magic number for admission to Harvard based on standardized tests - - don't you know that yet? Not only do URMs stink on the SAT and the APs, they don't strive for excellence on the ACT, either:</p>

<p>"If race-sensitive admissions programs are abolished at the University of Michigan and other state-run universities, the small number of African Americans scoring at the top of the ACT scoring pyramid will almost surely result in a huge reduction in African-American students at these public universities."
"In 2006 the median score for whites on the ACT was 22.0. (The ACT test is scored on a scale of 1 to 36.) For blacks, the median score was 17.1. Thus, on average, blacks scored 13.6 percent lower on the ACT test than did whites."
"These scores demonstrate that in strict race-neutral admissions environments - such as the ones that still prevail at state universities in California, Florida, and Washington State - very few black students will score high enough on standardized admissions tests to qualify for places at the nation's highest-ranked public universities."</p>

<p>The persisting racial gap in ACT college admission test scores. (2006). The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, 53, 17-19.</p>

183

<p>
[quote]
-I'm sorry. Is this the same woman who had to quit her job for being a LIAR????

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I do laud your ability to regard the question at hand.</p>

184

<p>"I think what you meant to say was that enrollment of blacks and such fell at UC Berkeley and/or UCLA. I'm pretty sure that's what you meant to say. Am I right?"</p>

<p>-Indeed you are.</p>

185

<p>kollegkid, what are you proving by posting avg. AP & ACT scores? nothing. we all know that urms score lower. what's your point?</p>

186

<p>Oh, come on. Not this debate again.</p>

<p>It's hard to argue that black acceptees didn't have to reach the same, or at least very similar standards as all other acceptees. That goes for other URMs, too (as well as ORMs a.k.a. Asians and white people, but that's uncontested). Before you make a statement like this, remember that virtually all applicants to top colleges are qualified; things like affirmative action are just ways (unfair ways is my opinion, but that's a different debate) to pick out a few. They try to pick those who are most qualified and/or have hooks.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, because it seems to me this post is about them after they are accepted, that really doesn't matter. My point is that this debate has taken place many times and no consensus was reached. I would try to come with new arguments instead of regurgitating the old ones. I won't involve myself further.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
-I'm sorry. Is this the same woman who had to quit her job for being a LIAR????

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>How is this relevant? Ad hominem.</p>

187

<p>"you still haven't responded to the "fairness" question. is racism fair? i'm pretty sure that as a country, we have established that discrimination based on race is unfair."</p>

<p>-I have responded. Fairness is relative. Even if I say racism is not fair, if I don't subscribe to your definition of racism, it doesn't matter..... This is what you are failing to realize.</p>

188

<p>Before I'm attacked (though I won't even look at the attacks), I'd just like to say I have no position on this issue. Just pointing out some flaws in the debates. Both sides are easily arguable.</p>

189

<p>you are failing to realize that race is a factor in college admissions and that racism is a practice that people have tried to end for many years because of how unfair it is</p>

<p>also...my "definition" of racism? you don't believe that racism is discrimination against people because of their race?</p>

190

<p>KK- can you show a study that links college success with admissions essays?</p>

<p>What EC predicts college success?</p>

<p>Is there any EC that will guarantee acceptance at Harvard despite race and despite SAT scores and GPA?</p>

191

<p>"KK- can you show a study that links college success with admissions essays?"</p>

<p>-I don't have to. I'm talking about college admissions. If you really believe that SAT scores are all that matter, then why don't all colleges ONLY accept applications using SAT scores? Why ask for ECs or essays? or any other information for that matter?</p>

<p>"What EC predicts college success?"</p>

<p>-It depends on the EC and the school.</p>

<p>"Is there any EC that will guarantee acceptance at Harvard despite race and despite SAT scores and GPA?"</p>

<p>-I don't believe so. But the same can be said for SAT scores and GPA.</p>

192

<p>lmao, you quoted me, but didn't respond</p>

193

<p>"you are failing to realize that race is a factor in college admissions"</p>

<p>-What? No I'm not. I've said quite clearly that I know this is a factor at some schools.</p>

<p>"and that racism is a practice that people have tried to end for many years because of how unfair it is"</p>

<p>-Fairness is STILL relative. You can say all the flowery things you want but it is STILL relative.</p>

<p>also...my "definition" of racism? you don't believe that racism is discrimination against people because of their race?"</p>

<p>Can I come up with a different view of racism? Sure. Does it matter? No. Why? Because you are still left to disagree, hence the relative nature of these kinds of things.</p>

194

<p>can you explain exactly what you mean by "fairness is still relative"</p>

<p>also...i don't think that i am going to be able to change your views in any way so i don't see any point to arguing anymore</p>

195

<p>"fairness is still relative"</p>

<p>-What's fair to me does not have to be- and probably is not- fair to you. Arguing that something is or is not 'fair' is pretty pointless. There is no standard of what is or is not 'fair', especially in college admissions. The fact is, every system a college creates to admit its students will have critics- those saying that something is not 'fair'.</p>

<p>"also...i don't think that i am going to be able to change your views in any way"</p>

<p>-My view is that colleges should pick students however they want, and that the 'market' of students will figure out the rest. If it is this that you are trying to change, then no, you will not be able to change that.</p>

196

<p>AA has been hijacked and made into something which borders on discrimination. AA was originally intended so that QUALIFIED minorities were not denied admission based on race. Now, it has morphed into private universities accepting UNDER QUALIFIED minorities except asians of course, who according to colleges, are not minorities. pro-AA advocates say that it prevents discrimination, so how come asians are not included? have asians not suffered and faced unfair challenges? just because we were not slaves does not mean we had it easy? detention centers, immigration quotas etc.</p>

197

<p>"AA was originally intended so that QUALIFIED minorities were not denied admission based on race. Now, it has morphed into private universities accepting UNDER QUALIFIED minorities"</p>

<p>-Can you even prove this? What is "under qualified"? And just how do YOU get to be the judge of that?</p>

198

<p>how can you judge that they ARE as good as the others who apply?</p>

<p>also...</p>

<p>"My view is that colleges should pick students however they want, and that the 'market' of students will figure out the rest. If it is this that you are trying to change, then no, you will not be able to change that."</p>

<p>exactly, i believe that the way colleges pick students is flawed</p>

<p>out of curiosity are you a URM?</p>

199

<p>KK,</p>

<p>Again, since you disagreed that AA=SAT scores, here is how researchers operationalize AA. It is all based on SATs.</p>

<p>"At the institutional level, we measure the degree of a college or university’s commitment to affirmative action as the difference between the average black or Hispanic SAT score and the average for the institution as a whole, arguing that the larger this gap the more the institution is probably trading off other criteria (such as race or ethnicity) against test scores to determine admission. At the individual level, we measure the extent of a minority student’s likely benefit from affirmative action by taking the difference between his or her SAT score and the institution’s overall average, again arguing that students with test scores below the institutional average are likely to have been admitted using other criteria, not limited to but including race and ethnicity. Controlling for a student’s personal characteristics and family background, we then regress these indicators of institutional and individual affirmative action on GPA, self-expressed satisfaction with college, and the probability of leaving the institution."</p>

<p>In all due fairness, there does seem to be some evidence to support the contention that SAT scores aren't a predictor of success for URMs. </p>

<p>"Our estimates provided no evidence whatsoever for the mismatch hypothesis. In no case did we find that having an SAT score below the institutional average undermined the performance or well being of individual minority students. If anything minority students who benefited from affirmative action earned higher grades and left school at lower rates than others, and they expressed neither greater nor less satisfaction with college life in general."</p>

<p>However, the same researchers did find that AA policies do contribute to stigmatization of minorities on campus: </p>

<p>"We did, however, find some support for the stereotype threat hypothesis, which argues that institutional use of affirmative action stigmatizes black and Hispanic students to compromise performance and well being. Our indicator of institutional affirmative action suggested that the greater an institution used affirmative action criteria in admissions, the lower the grades, the greater the odds of school leaving, and the less the satisfaction with college life expressed by individual minority students, holding constant socioeconomic background, academic preparation, and aptitude."</p>

<p>These researchers did not examine the effects of reverse discrimination on whites. </p>

<p>Fischer, M. J., & Massey, D. S. (2007). The effects of affirmative action in higher education. Social Science Research, 36, 531-549. Science Direct database.</p>

200

<p>the fact is that urms get into elite schools with subpar SAT scores and gpa. </p>

<p>Personal example: a black male (middle class) from my school graduated with a 4.1 gpa (weighted, 3.7 unweighted) and a 1360 SAT. He was admitted to Wharton. He was not national merit anything nor was he in the top 20% of his class. He was a state champion debater.
One Year later, a black female (middle class) was admitted to Haverford, Amherst, Swarthmore, and Williams with a gpa of 3.7 weighted (3.4 unweighted) and a 1720 SAT score. She had no special ecs.
In my class (2008), my guidance counselor advised a black female (lower middle class) to look at schools such as Dartmouth and Williams. Her gpa is 3.5 weighted (3.2 unweighted). She is in the lower half of the class and plans to take only 4 APs in high school. </p>

<p>As these examples show, underqualified urms are admitted while overqualified orms (asians) are rejected in the name of diversity.</p>