NEVER say blacks will do worse at elite colleges...

Applying to College
381

<p>
[quote]
While that is possible, I just don't see it. As a student at Harvard, I have never observed that most of the black people there are rich. If you have some source of information, observations, anecdotes, stats or otherwise, proving that most blacks at Harvard are in fact rich, I'd be glad to see it.

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<p>Blacks at the Ivies and other elite universities are overwhelmingly from the upper-middle class or children of immigrants from Africa/Caribbean (who may be upper-middle class or, at the very least, have some higher education).</p>

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<p>Why do people keep reviving this thread?! DIE, THREAD DIE!!!</p>

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<p>k&s,</p>

<p>At Harvard, the African Americans tend to come from upper-middle class backgrounds. However the immigrants (while their parents do have some level of higher education) tend to come from middle class to lower class backgrounds. And because these immigrants overwhelmingly make up the majority of black students at Harvard, most blacks there are not rich.</p>

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<p>^I think that the definition of 'rich' varies greatly from person to person.</p>

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<p>Okay ses, I'll clarify my last sentence. Most blacks at Harvard come from lower class to middle class backgrounds.</p>

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<p>Someone once said blacks were not dumber, but acording to recent studies the consistently perform lower on tests ,like the sat,than almost any nationality out there.</p>

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<p>But that doesn't make them dumber. There are definitely environmental factors that correlate with poor SAT performance. I'm sure that if they studied SAT scores across economic groups, you would see an interesting trend. The wealthier you are the better the scores are and the poorer one is the worst the scores are. The majority of African Americans in this country are poor. It is no wonder they do worse on standardized tests.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
At Harvard, the African Americans tend to come from upper-middle class backgrounds. However the immigrants (while their parents do have some level of higher education) tend to come from middle class to lower class backgrounds. And because these immigrants overwhelmingly make up the majority of black students at Harvard, most blacks there are not rich.

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<p>hotpiece – uhhh, didn’t I already say this?</p>

<p>However, your assertion that immigrants overwhelmingly make up the majority of black students is not really true. Immigrants make up about 13% of the college-age black population and “only” account for about 25% of black students at Ivy League and other top universities.</p>

<p>Here’s what Prof. Lani Guiner had to say about this topic –

[quote]
Black American scholars such as Henry Louis Gates and Lani Guinier, two Harvard University professors, have said that white educators are skirting long-held missions to resolve historic wrongs against native black Americans by enrolling immigrants who look like them.</p>

<p>In an interview, Guinier said that the chasm has less to do with immigrants and more to do with admissions officers who rely on tests that wealthier students, including black immigrants, can afford to prepare for.</p>

<p>"In part, it has to do with coming from a country, especially those educated in Caribbean and African countries, where blacks were in the majority and did not experience the stigma that black children did in the United States," Guinier said. "The fathers of these students tend to be much better educated. This is not just true of immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean, this is true across the board. We have an admissions system that prefers wealth, that rewards wealth and calls it merit."

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[quote]
But that doesn't make them dumber. There are definitely environmental factors that correlate with poor SAT performance. I'm sure that if they studied SAT scores across economic groups, you would see an interesting trend. The wealthier you are the better the scores are and the poorer one is the worst the scores are. The majority of African Americans in this country are poor. It is no wonder they do worse on standardized tests.

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<p>However, studies of black students living in affluent suburbs with highly educated, professional parents showed that their scores, while higher than that for blacks, overall, still lagged behind those of their white or Asian peers.</p>

<p>This doesn’t suggest that they are dumber, but the authors of these studies have suggested that (generally) these black students aren’t quite as focused on academics as their peers.</p>

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<p>Well my point was not that blacks are intrinsically dumb, it was given that right now in this time with the wealth they have, they are slightly under the mean of standard test scores. I am not writing about the potential but about the facts.</p>

390

<p>can you get any more incompetent. URMS are not LESS ABLE. that's the whole point of this thread- to show morons like you that you have no idea what your talking about.</p>

<p>It must be a real source of comfort to be morally superior and smarter than everyone else.</p>

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<p>seconded streak</p>

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<p>
[quote]
However, your assertion that immigrants overwhelmingly make up the majority of black students is not really true. Immigrants make up about 13% of the college-age black population and “only” account for about 25% of black students at Ivy League and other top universities.

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<p>Actually the the according to the article in the JBHE which cites Gates (Feb. 2007) states:</p>

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In a 2004 forum at Princeton University,** Professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., director of the W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African-American Research at Harvard, stated his belief that 75 percent of the black students at Harvard were of African or Caribbean descent or of mixed race. **According to Professor Gates, more than two thirds of all Harvard’s black students were either the children or grandchildren of West Indians or Africans and very few of Harvard’s black students were the descendants of American slaves. </p>

<p>Now an article published in the American Journal of Education provides evidence to support Professor Gates’ claim. **Researchers at Princeton University and the University of Pennsylvania find that 40 percent of all black students at the eight Ivy League colleges had at least one parent who was born outside the United States. **About 13 percent of the entire black population of the United States are recent immigrants. Therefore, the number of black students of immigrant origin at Ivy League schools is more than triple the level of recent immigrants in the U.S. population of blacks. </p>

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<p><a href="http://www.jbhe.com/latest/index021507_p.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/latest/index021507_p.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>k&s,</p>

<p>Your post made it sound as if (regardless of the immigrant population) you thought that most blacks at Harvard were rich. I was simply trying to reiterate my point that most blacks at Harvard aren't rich, because most of them are immigrants.


Um, actually, my assertion was true. Immigrant blacks only make up 13% of the black population, like you said, but they actually make up 40% of the black population at Ivy League schools. And at Harvard, which is the only school I was discussing, immigrant blacks make up 75%. I posted an article from the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education about this earlier on the thread, but I'll repost it here for your benefit. </p>

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<p>So, my assertion was correct for Harvard, the only school I was speaking about.</p>

<p>Source:<a href="http://www.jbhe.com/latest/index021507_p.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/latest/index021507_p.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>


As I said, there are definite environmental factors that stunt the performance of African American students. Although these factors are less prevalent in more affluent areas, they still exist. So, it's no wonder that African Americans score lower than other racial groups.</p>

<p>THANKS sybbie!! I see we posted at about the same time!!</p>

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<p>"As I said, there are definite environmental factors that stunt the performance of African American students. Although these factors are less prevalent in more afluent areas, they still exist. So, it's no wonder that African Americans score lower than other racial groups."</p>

<p>Agreed, but I have a hard time finding why that is my problem? Why is an African American with lower test scores, GPA, and ECs getting into a college that I got rejected from? A culture that seems to disparage those who excel in school, is not my issue. I attended a high school where about 15-20% of the school population was made up of lower income African American students bussed into my school from the inner city. The outcome people hoped for, these lower income kids would see that education has its worth and by being surrounded by smart and motivated Asians/Indians/Whites these African Americans would, in turn, become smart and motivated. The real outcome: African Amnerican test scores DECLINED in my school. Overall standardized test scores at my school DECLINED. My school's reputation DECLINED. I believe that 6 of the 65-70 bussed in students are actually attending 4 year colleges and none are going to a school ranked in the top 75. Its sad but its the truth, I don't think that any race is more or less qualified or intelligent but the fact is that some cultures emphasize education and some don't and thats not an outsiders job to either fix or bear the negative impact of.</p>

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<p>My point stands undefeated.</p>

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<p>
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So, my assertion was correct for Harvard, the only school I was speaking about.

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<p>Well, there seems to be some discrepancy with regard to Harvard’s no. of students from Africa and the Caribbean.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Instead, we should take a closer look. That was my reaction in 2004 after black Harvard law professor Lani Guinier and Henry Louis Gates Jr., chairman of Harvard's African-American studies department, stirred up a black Harvard alumni reunion with questions about precisely where the university's new black students were coming from.</p>

<p>About 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's undergraduates were black, Gates and Guinier said, but somewhere between one-half and two-thirds of the black students were "West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a lesser extent, children of biracial couples."

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<p><a href="http://www.africaresource.com/content/view/235/68/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.africaresource.com/content/view/235/68/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And phrases like “Professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., director of the W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African-American Research at Harvard, stated his belief that 75 percent of the black students at Harvard were of African or Caribbean descent or of mixed race." doesn’t really lead me to believe that Prof. Gates knows the actual stats.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, whatever the actual nos. are, we can all agree that the children of immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean are disproportionately over-represented.</p>

<p>
[quote]
As I said, there are definite environmental factors that stunt the performance of African American students. Although these factors are less prevalent in more affluent areas, they still exist. So, it's no wonder that African Americans score lower than other racial groups.

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<p>That seems to be a poor exuse - after all, these black students have the benefit of the environment of a highly regarded school district, highly educated and professional parents and all the economic benefits (private tutors, prep courses) - nevermind the fact that there are black students from these backgrounds who do commit themselves to academics and perform as well as their peers at the top.</p>

<p>Besides, there are Asian students (particularly from SE Asia) who have environmental factors which stunt their performance - and guess what? They usually get shafted for their higher performing Asian counterparts.</p>

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<p>Well as a student at Harvard, I can attest to the accuracy of his statement.</p>

398

<p>The last part is interesting..
The authors conclude, “We cannot answer the question of whether the children of black immigrants are worthy beneficiaries of affirmative action, for that answer rests largely on a moral judgment.”</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Well as a student at Harvard, I can attest to the accuracy of his statement.

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<p>Well, Prof. Gates seems to be a bit wishy-washy as to the exact figures…</p>

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but somewhere between one-half and two-thirds of the black students were "West Indian and African immigrants or their children”

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<p>Not surprising, since it seems that the Harvard admin is keeping these figures to themselves. </p>

<p>It seems that Prof. Gates is estimating these figures based on attendance at a black alumni reunion, an honors thesis based on interviews and an incomplete student survey – rather than hard figures from the admin.</p>

<p>Btw, I have spent time at Harvard as well.</p>

400

<p>I think the one-half statement is Lani Guinier's estimate, and the two-thirds statement is Professor Gates's estimate...</p>

<p>But either way, there are WAY more immigrants at Harvard that African Americans. So, I'm really not sure what you are trying to prove...</p>