NEVER say blacks will do worse at elite colleges...

Applying to College
441

<p>Spideygirl, please don't take this as an insult, but the fact that you were ignorant of the "one-drop rule", shows how very little historical and sociological knowledge have of race relations in the U.S. To be honest, you've amazed and mildly frustrated me on both this thread, and the Harvard/Cabot Residents thread, because despite the fact that there seem to be gaping holes in your understanding/knowledge of historical and current American race relations, you often stridently dismiss respected sociological research, as well as the viewpoints of people who may have repeated personal experienced with racism (both overt and subtle). </p>

<p>Don't get me wrong: On the one hand, I very much respect and admire what I view to be your sincere and dogged egalitarian/humanitarian bent. On the other, I get the impression that much of it is predicated upon wishful thinking, and not grounded in the reality garnered by wide experience or knowledge. Gingerly, I suggest that you might gain insight from a bit of historical research into black/white relations in the U.S., starting in 1619, when the first Africans were brought to these shores, and continuing on through the Jim Crow Era and ensuing Civil Rights struggle. (Actually, that's more than "a bit", I know, but It's fascinating stuff, and gives a solid context to many of the viewpoints expressed by AfAms on these forums.) </p>

<p>I apologize, because I don't know how to word this post as not to appear condescending (because believe me, I DO respect you, and do not wish to offend), but I somewhat strongly feel the need to establish some kind of understanding with you---even if, in the end, we just agree to disagree :).</p>

442

<p>hmm.. interesting</p>

443

<p>In my circles, unless you just had a total disregard for the feeling of someone who was overweight, the terms I've either used as opposed to calling someone fat or come across are, "thick", "healthy", or "full figured", to name a few. As a matter of fact if you were to check out dating sites, targeting AA, those terms in a description set off alarms, lol! As far as AA men, having preferences for shall we say, "heathier" sized women, made me chuckle a bit. It reminded me of the Sir Mix a Lot song, Baby Got Back. In it, he states his preference for thicker, big bottomed women as opposed to "Cosmo"(politan) type built women. It's kinda stereotypical, but still, prevalent in the AA culture. </p>

<p>The one drop rule comments reminded me of the Dave Chappelle "Racial Draft" skit.Pure comic genius. Having a child that is bi racial, I totally respect her mothers heritage, and we raise her accordingly. The fact remains, she is dark like Halle, and even though she is half white, it would be folly for her to stake that claim(I'm white) in this society. Fortunately, it's not as much an issue as it was as in let's say, my parents time. Nor is it a significant issue where we live.</p>

<p>As for the previous posts stating not seeing fat asians, ever heard of a sumo wrestler? See the recent football game held in Japan vs the US, in Japan? Some pretty big guys on the home team.</p>

<p>On a more serious note,
I also wanted to respond to some of the quotes made in reference to what others have coined "the model asian myth." While it is true and commendable the achievements made by many asians in this society, looked at in a larger context, we are looking at the exceptional accomplishments of a few rather than the results of many.
No one can deny that from a educational, and socio-economic standpoint among other comparables, the asian culture in this country and others have thrived. However, lets not forget that many, many asian countries and their people are poor in context to those who were fortunate to rise above the challenges in their indigenous lands. Such narrow comparisons breed contempt and an air of superiority, which invaribly lead to racism.</p>

444

<p>"The one drop rule comments reminded me of the Dave Chappelle "Racial Draft" skit.Pure comic genius."</p>

<p>The professor for my African American Politics class started his lecture one day by showing this...</p>

445

<p>If people, including supporters of modern affirmative action, still want to use the one-drop rule, then they should abstain from responding to questions like</p>

<p>"My great-great-great-great-great-grandfather was black. Am I a URM?"</p>

<p>with "Don't try to game the system."</p>

446

<p>no one said we wanted to continue using the one drop rule We just said that it is sadly prevalent in society today. Personally, I believe every aspect of someone's ethnic heritage should be acknowledge, if they want it to be, but what I believe is not the case in this world. Some people, a lot of people only care about that Black part</p>

447

<p>Honestly, if you're black, you know you're black. It's not a hard question.</p>

448

<p>POETSHEART:
“Spideygirl, please don't take this as an insult, but the fact that you were ignorant of the "one-drop rule", shows how very little historical and sociological knowledge have of race relations in the US”</p>

<p>No offense taken – I appreciate respectful candor and also the opportunity to speak freely on this topic. With the same good intentions I will say that based on what I have read here and elsewhere you tend to be too quick to jump to simplistic conclusions. If you are a high school or college aged CCer, that would not surprise me. Experience offers a rich view of the world which cannot be replicated in a classroom. If you are an adult like me who is way out of college, I wonder if your tendencies to (IMHO) be too quick to simplify may have something to do with the highly charged nature of this topic.</p>

<p>As it is quite late and I have houseguests, in brief I will say that my not remembering the phrase “one drop rule” does not mean that I have “very little historical and sociological knowledge…of race relations in the U.S.”. If you are a younger person, I have probably forgotten more than you have ever learned. Other than my AP US History class in 10th grade (50,000 years ago), I have not been a student of race relations in the US (I have been way to busy with other things that I have to learn). The $.02 that I bring to a discussion such as this is my own experience.</p>

<p>Poetsheart: “you often stridently dismiss respected sociological research”</p>

<p>In the previous thread which you cited, I repeatedly suggested that posters (including yourself) review a broad sample of sociological research on a particular topic rather than jump on one paper or study which supports a point that you are trying to make at the time. This is common sense, and it is quite different than discounting sound research. </p>

<p>Poetsheart: “you often stridently dismiss…the viewpoints of people who may have repeated personal experienced with racism (both overt and subtle). “</p>

<p>Having spent a ridiculous amount of time thinking about and responding to the viewpoints on the thread about which you are speaking, I think this is last thing you should say about me. I never "discounted" even one such viewpoint, but instead repeatedly requested that the viewpoints of others be considered as well.</p>

<p>Poetsheart: “On the one hand, I very much respect and admire what I view to be your sincere and dogged egalitarian/humanitarian bent. On the other, I get the impression that much of it is predicated upon wishful thinking, and not grounded in the reality garnered by wide experience or knowledge. “</p>

<p>This statement is so very general, that it is difficult to address. You are correct that I am a dogged humanitarian, but I do not believe that I operate with wishful thinking. I am optimistic, because I do have a great deal of positive experience which gives me hope. I also know that it is common to discount parts of reality when things do not fit a pessimistic view of a topic. In any case, it can be a challenge for us all to remove the rigid frames we place around certain issues and open up our minds to new ones.</p>

<p>I also don’t want to seem condescending, and of course we can agree to disagree.</p>

449

<p>come on guys, Relax & lets stop with the URM bickering.</p>

<p>How about we all just look at the ethnic statistics of the college we want to go to and see what ethnicitys are least represented there.</p>

<p>If you fall into that category then BAM!.....you can consider yourself an [(Under Represented Minority)]</p>

<p>People are making it more convoluted than it seems</p>

450

<p>^^^^That makes sense</p>

451

<p>Funny how Asians are now ORM and have been incorporated into the White majority, for the sake of arguing pro- and anti- AA positions. Nice.</p>

<p>Wonder how many people in the majority disagree with AA, and how many in the minority that agree with AA?</p>

<p>Wonder how many people in the majority would say that they are marginalized by AA in the college admissions process, and how many in the minority feel that they would be further marginalized without AA?</p>

452

<p>IsleBoy,</p>

<p>Long time no see!</p>

<p>Yes, it is downright hilarious how Asians are no longer considered minorities by "virtue" of their alleged "over-representation." (The only exceptions are just that, exceptions). But, wait a minute, who's doing the labeling? Oh, that's right, it's the supporters of modern affirmative action. I surely do not view Asians as "over-represented" because I don't believe any group can ever be "over-represented."</p>

<p>According to the Pew "Trends in Political Values and Core Attitudes," 65% of all whites polled favored the nebulous term "affirmative action" when it was defined merely as ways to help blacks, women, and other minorities. 93% of all blacks favored this term.</p>

<p>Overall, 70% of all respondents favored this "affirmative action."</p>

<p>However, 62% of all respondents disagreed with the following statement, which is the current implementation of affirmative action:</p>

<p>
[quote]

We should make every possible effort to improve the position of blacks and other minorities, even if means giving them preferential treatment.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>27% of all whites agree with that statement, while 57% of all blacks agree with that statement. Both of those percentages are significantly lower than the "affirmative action" percentages, which are 65% and 93%, respectively.</p>

<p>I can't answer your second question. If these "minority" people you speak of, which I assume does not include Asians, feel marginalized without a system of preferential treatment, then we've strayed from the Civil Rights Movement for it will have simply become a program of entitlements.</p>

453

<p>"We should make every possible effort to improve the position of blacks and other minorities, even if means giving them preferential treatment."</p>

<p>-Then again, in the process you shouldn't just forget about caucasians and expect their SAT scores to be 2350+ just because you feel the majority is rich anyway therefore their parents should have used money to prep them (this is the case that I always witness)</p>

454

<p>So Authentic,</p>

<p>I agree that on these threads, I have seen the "white = rich = used test prep that poor black kid in the ghetto couldn't afford / reach / know" excuse thrown about many times, both by our peers and our seniors.</p>

<p>I sometimes forget that CC is not representative of the American political spectrum; it's tilted way, way too left of center when it comes to education.</p>

455

<p>I'm not sure where asians have been incorporated into the white majority, especially because AA is a means of increasing diversity in schools as well as keeping a power balance in a society that is quickly moving toward a minority-majority nation. When one group dominated in a minority-majority country in the past, it resulted in oppression and discrimination.</p>

<p>While the whole test-prep wealth issue is not an issue of race, it IS an issue of socioeconomics which IS related to race. But that simply helps to justify AA, but doesn't deem it as necessary. </p>

<p>Because race is a way in which our society naturally divides itself, it is vital that socioeconomic gaps between groups be minimized in order to aid the integration and inter-relations of the various groups. This helps to prevent any group feeling "superior" to any other, which is the basis of racism. If a student who takes all honors classes never has a class with a black student in his entire life, it could easily lead to the assumption that black students aren't smart enough to take honors classes. </p>

<p>All AA is doing is finding the minority students that are bright and qualified to do the work, and valuing the diversity and benefits that they would bring to the school in admissions. </p>

<p>--I know somebodies going to respond with "It makes minorities feel inferior by lowering the bar!"
-But it doesn't. It's simply acknowledging that THAT particular university finds diversity to be a valuable and important aspect of a class, and saying that they value that part of that students identity.</p>

<p>Diversity, equal opportunities, and the closing of the racial socioeconomic gaps are SOCIETAL goals. And a university should be commended for helping achieve the goals of society.</p>

456

<p>I liked this post so much, I'm going to post it again.......</p>

<p>"I'm not sure where asians have been incorporated into the white majority, especially because AA is a means of increasing diversity in schools as well as keeping a power balance in a society that is quickly moving toward a minority-majority nation. When one group dominated in a minority-majority country in the past, it resulted in oppression and discrimination.</p>

<p>While the whole test-prep wealth issue is not an issue of race, it IS an issue of socioeconomics which IS related to race. But that simply helps to justify AA, but doesn't deem it as necessary.</p>

<p>Because race is a way in which our society naturally divides itself, it is vital that socioeconomic gaps between groups be minimized in order to aid the integration and inter-relations of the various groups. This helps to prevent any group feeling "superior" to any other, which is the basis of racism. If a student who takes all honors classes never has a class with a black student in his entire life, it could easily lead to the assumption that black students aren't smart enough to take honors classes.</p>

<p>All AA is doing is finding the minority students that are bright and qualified to do the work, and valuing the diversity and benefits that they would bring to the school in admissions.</p>

<p>--I know somebodies going to respond with "It makes minorities feel inferior by lowering the bar!"
-But it doesn't. It's simply acknowledging that THAT particular university finds diversity to be a valuable and important aspect of a class, and saying that they value that part of that students identity.</p>

<p>Diversity, equal opportunities, and the closing of the racial socioeconomic gaps are SOCIETAL goals. And a university should be commended for helping achieve the goals of society."</p>

457

<p>Tyler,</p>

<p>Asians have not been incorporated into the white majority. Rather, they are treated like non-minorities (“over-represented”) even though they are minorities.</p>

<p>The original definition of affirmative action can certainly be used to keep this “power balance” you speak of. After all, it was meant to ensure that no one be discriminated against on the basis of factors that are, more often than not, irrelevant to performance in the classroom and on the job.</p>

<p>The test-prep wealth issue is indeed one of socioeconomics. However, many supporters of race-based affirmative action use socioeconomic arguments to justify their racial preference support (e.g. rhetorical questions like, “What about the black kid in the ghetto who can’t afford test prep?” That’s not a racial point; it’s socioeconomic. Poverty could happen to anyone.) Socioeconomic issues don’t justify racial affirmative action. They justify socioeconomic affirmative action.</p>

<p>We can never prevent feelings of superiority, unless we forcibly reprogram mankind. Don’t forget that there was a hierarchy among slaves, who were as a group supposedly "equal."</p>

<p>Outreach is “finding the minority students that are bright and qualified.” I fully support this. Modern affirmative action is preferentially treating these students on the basis of their race. I don’t support this at all.</p>

<p>You didn’t respond to the fear of affirmative action “mak[ing] minorities feel inferior…” You just ignored that point and introduced another point – diversity. I remind you that Justice Lewis Powell wrote in Bakke that “…preferential programs may only reinforce common stereotypes holding that certain groups are unable to achieve success without special protection based on a factor having no relationship to individual worth.”</p>

<p>I’m all for equality of opportunity. I have no support for equality of result. Inequality of result does not necessarily infer inequality of opportunity, although that may be the case.</p>

458

<p>


But this was a manufactured hierarchy, that unfortunately still exists today to some point.</p>

459

<p>Nobody says that blacks will do worse at elite colleges.</p>

<p>People seem to be confusing racism with opposition to affirmative action.</p>

<p>I'll just requote fabrizio, whose post you can read about 5.9584738374 centimeters above mine, for added emphasis, sice I've already restated my arguments 59584738374 times (and, of course, got the same reply each time, as tends to happen on these threads, even when a rebuttal is made).</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I’m all for equality of opportunity. I have no support for equality of result. Inequality of result does not necessarily infer inequality of opportunity, although that may be the case.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

460

<p>"Nobody says that blacks will do worse at elite colleges."</p>

<p>On average, they do worse than other students. There is plenty of empirical evidence proving this. But you people just think it's racist to point out things like that.</p>