I will just say, in case it wasn’t clear from my earlier post: If the book review gives an accurate portrayal of the contents of the book, then I have serious doubts about the accuracy of the portrayal of the process in the book.
Another suggestion to prospective PhD applicants. Students who have established some contact or communications with our faculty prior to applying often have a leg up in doctoral admissions. Applicants to doctoral programs shouldn’t only select potential programs on the basis of reputation or ranking (though these are very important) but also on fit to their interests.
Fit works both ways and is important. Of course, if your background or interests are not a fit, you may be a great scholar but the admissions process will have its obstacles, and over time, this does contribute to the skew. In the best possible world, and we have seen this occasionally in the arts, programs would be intentionally looking for diversity of interests or politics(or aesthetic style) which would then trickle up, so to speak, to more diverse faculty interests and politics and so on. But a faculty whose interests are more to the left, for instance, will then make the next batch of students a better fit with similar bent, and so it goes, round and round. It’s kind of a cart and horse, chicken and egg situation I think.
As the mother of a perfect GRE (first try, never prepared 170/170) scorer, I now understand why he had such incredible offers despite a less than amazing GPA, though it was good and in seriously challenging courses. DH worried that his progeny would have no offers, competing with the easy handed As at ivies. The undergraduate dept. at DS school is known as not handing out anything, and has a great academic reputation.
If this article is even half accurate, it more than explains it.
S sent an email to one of the departments to which he is applying (prior to the application) and never got a response. I suppose being ignored is not a good sign, eh? Hopefully, they will have the courtesy to at least send him an actual rejection to his application, rather than just throwing it in the electronic trash as well :(. After all, one does have to pay to submit those things.
At some schools/programs, its a de facto requirement to reach out. Even if they don’t respond, at least the applicant made an effort. Quite frankly, I can understand the concept. If I was a PI, and a student claims to want to work with me for the next 5+ years, how difficult would it be to send an intro e-mail describing your interests and ask for a 15 minute phone chat. It just may save you an app fee…if I am not taking students next year, that would be my response.
I’d be shocked if he got the offers because of his GRE.
It depends on the program, of course, but grad school isn’t about the numbers the same way as undergrad is.
And I know several Ivy programs who give identical packages to all in the department regardless of number stats. Many programs here at UMich work the same way. (Actually, every department I know of here gives the same package to all students in their PhD program.)
Seems like it would not be surprising if there were so much variation between different departments in their admission practices (and variation in the same department depending on which faculty happen to be doing the admissions that year) that stories like those described could easily happen somewhere, but never be heard of in some other department.
Of course, employment in general can be subject to considerable variation in hiring practices, even for similar jobs in the same industries. PhD programs have some aspects of employment, so perhaps it is not surprising that some aspects of hiring in employment (including the variation in practices, and lack of transparency) can exist in PhD program admissions.
Yes, of course it could. Like I said though, I’d be absolutely shocked if that was the reason.
PhD programs fund students because they think they’ll be successful. A GRE score isn’t an indication of future success. It wouldn’t be in a program’s best interest, IMO, to invest heavily in someone simply based on their GRE score which is why I don’t think that was the reason.
I think that for science-based grad programs, a strong quantitative score is expected, since the math is roughly at the pre-algebra/algebra level (lower than for the SAT). Hence the reference to cut-offs.
Humanities PHD programs may totally disregard the quantitative score.
As for the religious college… we’re not talking about Notre Dame. based on the blurb, we’re likely talking about a college like Bob Jones, or Liberty, or Pensacola Christian. The professors can’t expect students who went there to know the difference between belief and knowledge, because the college actively advocates blurring the two or considers belief “truer” than knowledge. However, in order to pursue a PHD, you need to have a very keen, metacritical ability where distinguishing between each type of “truth” is essential. In addition, there are many questions about the quality of some of these colleges. Wheaton, IL, which was in the news recently, is considered academically reputable, as do Hope, Calvin, Grove City, Pepperdine… at least in most fields. However, Liberty or Bob Jones or Pensacola Christian aren’t considered “legit” due to the professors’ qualifications, the level of the classes, etc. Note that the student made the first cut but didn’t make the second (second cut would be statements and “fit” - the reason why she was cut would likely be related to her research interests being met within the program she applied to.)
I think a lot of this depends on the field, as well as the school. For instance, admissions in the art, music and dance would not necessarily depend that much on the GRE, but on actual work in the portfolio.
The importance of the GRE score varies by disciplines. The quant GRE score predictive of success in first year courses in econ, which is why students are told that the quantitative GRE score is probably the most important single predictor of admission. Here is a comment to that effect from a UC econ department:
How important is the Quantitative GRE?
It’s the single most important element. A score below 160 is likely to get you screened out at top programs. At the top programs, think of a great quant GRE score as being necessary, but not sufficient. Almost everyone who gets in has a 163 or above.
.
Correct. And the author even discusses this in the book, even tho the snippets from the reviewers don’t pick that up.
Re quantitative GRE score
But then shouldn’t any good student in a math based field get a top score on that? So it would not help distinguish between many applicants, although low scores can screen out some applicants.
But high scores across the board always help, never hurt. However, once applicants are “qualified” (above some hypothetical bar), then they are competing with other qualified applicants. Fit matters (hence my earlier comments). Also bear in mind that there is competition among the better and best departments. Admitted applicants sometimes disclose from where they’ve received other acceptances, as well as the size of their financial aid offer. This sometimes induces competing departments to raise their own offers.
Exactly. That is why, as the book discusses, it becomes a first sorting point for quantitative majors. In essence, the GRE-M is a floor, and for those that clear the hurdle, the PI’s go look at other stuff in the app. (The author mentions this bcos a high GRE score tends to inhibit diversity.)
I’m reading this thread with interest as my son just submitted applications to a handful of PhD programs. My H and I were completely ignorant about the process, so we were unable to offer any useful advice. I’m assuming son did some research, but I think he was pretty clueless too, so we can only hope that outcomes are favorable.
@mackinaw, I have appreciated your contribution to this thread as your posts have been very informative. Would you mind expounding on this point?
Is it correct to infer that some offers are “negotiable”? Is it common practice to discuss financial offers or would it be considered gauche? I have no idea what kind of offers exist; I’ve just heard that, in the least, stipends and TAships should cover housing and food. Son cares very little about money, but I would be pleased if he could be financially independent and secure enough to pay all his bills without worry.
@bogibogi Many PhD programs have active strategies for “landing” those who’ve been admitted. In addition to making individual contacts they often invite the admitted students to visit for a day or two (at the college’s expense), to build comaraderie but also to speak directly to each student about their interests and needs (and have them meet with faculty, including potential major professors and advisers, as well as with currently enrolled students).
If a student reports to one institution that they have an offer from a competitive department with a higher financial award or other support, and that this is a factor in their decision, then it’s not uncommon for one institution to match the offer of another. Of course it’s not just a money game. The effort to persuade the admitted students mainly focuses on the program opportunities, research opportunities, and future job placement (and past success). If a student needs to travel or undertake special studies or research abroad in summer, for example, then one institution might offer support for this initially, and a competing institution might match that or come up with some equivalent response.
Just remember that it will vary wildly by program but it certainly doesn’t hurt to ask. You will not be looked down upon for doing so.
For my masters program, asking for an increase did work. However, the PhD program I ended up choosing makes it clear that everyone gets identical packages because they don’t believe in competition between students in the department. On the other hand, they also stressed that they have discretionary funding for various things. So, for example, I’ve received extra funding for travel and research but I’ve also had their help in paying medical bills.
PhD programs admit you because they want you and some may be willing to put out more in order for you to come there. Often they’re already making a quarter to half million dollar investment in you (between tuition, stipend, insurance, etc) so another few thousand might be doable.
CheddarcheeseMN is correct. There are fields of study. that have a GRE cutoff for PhD admissions.
Economics is one. See this admissions guide to economics PhD programs.
“A good score on the quantitative reasoning section of the GRE. That’s means a 165 or
higher for the most competitive programs. If you score below 160, reconsider whether you
want should be aiming for an econ PhD.”