PhD admissions - parent experience :)

My S is applying for PhD programs in Physics. He has a good advisor and a thesis/research advisor and I am confident his application process is fine. He showed us his candidate statement and some other essays etc.

I am totally unfamiliar with graduate schools outside of professional (MD, JD etc) ones. Now that his apps are in, I have no idea what comes next. He says it’s not like undergrad admissions where everything is systematic (“basically the physics profs decide who they want . . .”) Here are some of the questions running through my head:

  1. Do schools have a date they release decisions on? Do they send out some acceptances and wait to see if they enroll and then send out more? How do they control yield?
  2. Will acceptances come with stipend and fellowship dollar offers? Will he be able to compare apples to apples in terms of expected work load and stipends/housing etc?
  3. What else should he consider if he is lucky enough to have more than one offer? He is already researching the cities where his schools are located, incase he has a preference for some over others. But he thinks that PhD admissions are quite difficult and he will be happy to be anywhere at all next fall.

Any other advice welcome!

When I was accepted for mine, it was basically like a job offer of sorts - a letter saying I had been accepted and including the offer of a Teaching Assistant position, pay, etc. It didn’t apply in my case, but in general finding a group with your research interests can be an important consideration when applying. If he has a particular area of interest he hopes to study, and one school has a better or more relevant group than another, then that should be THE decisive factor (once one is past the finances, of course :wink: ).

Depends on the university and department. While there’s an official release date, sometimes one may end up getting the decision earlier or if the department is bogged down or has organizational issues…it may come later. Latter isn’t as common from what my older relatives and friends experienced.

Depends on the university and department and how much funding they have.

One thing to keep in mind is that if one receives no fellowship/stipends(a.k.a. full pay), it’s really not wise to accept from both a financial and future employment situation…especially considering hiring committees for faculty will regard absence of fellowships on one’s CV as a red flag considering the vast majority of competitive candidates will have such fellowships.

Likely less of an issue in the field of Physics than many other fields.

If he has more than one offer, most important factors to determine decision:

  1. Does the department concerned have more professors with compatible academic interests AND COMPATABLE PERSONALITIES. Remember, your son will be working very closely with at least one Prof from this department for long periods of time...especially in the mid-end of the program and said Prof will have far more power over his academic and future career than an undergrad adviser.

A bad/incompatible adviser in those areas or one who ends up retiring or being denied tenure because s/he’s junior faculty who hasn’t received tenure yet before your S finishes his PhD will severely impede or even destroy one’s prospects of finishing the program.

  1. Does the department concerned have enough funding to fully/mostly support your S as a PhD student for most or preferably the entire period he's likely to be in the program? Some universities or departments have definitive limits on funding*.
  • I.e. Princeton has a strict 5 year limit on full-funding unless the individual department feels an extension of support is justified by some extreme few exceptional situations. If one's situation after 5 years doesn't fall into those exceptions and the program isn't completed, some departments there have the policy of either allowing the student to continue without departmental fellowship funding or kick the student out of the program altogether*.
  • Former was the case with a friend who is currently a Math Prof at a Southern LAC who despite obtaining outside fellowship funding still had to secretly work as a busboy at a country club to fund his last 4.5 years in the program. Latter was the case with an older college classmate's father who ended up having to complete his PhD at a lower-ranking university.

Hi, I have a PhD in a different field.

  1. Every program does this differently. Some programs have a date on which they release all decisions, although they rarely transmit that information to the applicant (just in case something delays that date). Most programs have been doing this for a long time and have a good idea of their annual average yield, so they decide how many students to admit based on that expectation (i.e., if you know your annual average yield is around 70%, and your goal is 7 students, you admit 10.)

Another common way PhD programs manage yield is exactly what you said, by offering admission to their strongest applicants first, and then putting the other applicants on a wait list. Sometimes that wait list is formal (i.e., they let the applicant know that they are wait listed) and sometimes it is informal (they just leave the wait listed applicants hanging until they hear back from their strongest applicants).

  1. Usually, yes, they do come with the stipend and fellowship offers. He will be able to make comparisons, but they won’t exactly be apples to apples. First of all, housing offers rarely come with the acceptance - housing is usually secured after you’ve accepted an offer. I’d advise him to research housing now if that’s a concern, and he’ll have to make his decision based on estimates, really.

Second of all, most programs will tell you “expected” work load, but there’s often an element of prevarication :slight_smile: In other words, the vast majority of programs will say “Our research assistantship is 20 hours a week.” The RAship is almost certainly not actually 20 hours a week (it’s more). What it actually is depends on the program and the PI, so I would encourage your son to talk to graduate students already in the program, and particularly those who already work for the PI he wants to work with, to find out what workload expectations look like.

  1. Aside from stipend amounts and location, in very rough order of importance:

-Prestige/reputation of the PI/placement rate of the PI. Where do PhD graduates end up after they finish? How often do students from the department get prestigious national fellowships like the NSF, NDSEG, and Hertz? (Those he can look up on their respective websites). This your son can find out by asking the PI themselves to give him an idea of where his recent graduates have ended up in the last 5-10 years. (He might have to reach back, since science PhDs often spend 3+ years in postdocs before getting an assistant professor position.) If he says he doesn’t know, that’s a red flag, since it’s his job to know.

-Prestige/reputation of the department/placement rates of the department. Ditto the above. Some departments have this on their website. If they don’t, call and ask. If they say they don’t know or don’t keep records, treat it as a red flag. It’s their job to know. (It also may be an indication that they have little to no professional/career development going on in the department.)

-Productiveness of the lab and the students that work in the lab. If the students have their CVs up on the website, check them out (they may be out of date, though). Same with the PI. Is the PI churning out papers and grants like a machine, or is the last thing he wrote a monograph from 1994? Scientific journal articles are the currency of the field. It’s how you get jobs, postdocs, grants, and other opportunities. Good PIs offer opportunities for students to get authorship early and often. Excellent labs have students publishing as early as their second year. If students don’t seem to be thinking about papers until their fourth year or later, that’s not a great sign, especially not in the physical sciences.

-Nature of the offer. Fellowship is the best level, because technically he doesn’t have to do anything for the money and has the most choice of who he can work with. Research assistantship is the next best, followed by teaching assistantship at dead last. Everyone needs a little teaching experience, but too much takes up time you could be spending on research (which, again, is how you get jobs and grants). Most offers are some kind of mix of teaching and research - most common is to require you to TA a class once a year or so. This is going to be tied to the above - the most productive departments are likely to be the ones that don’t require a metric ton of teaching.

-Supportiveness/nature of the PI he will be working with (or the general atmosphere of the department, if he is unsure about the PI). Is he a horrible boss that expects 100 hours a week of work and barely ever sees his students? (They exist!) Is he a “too nice” PI that gives weak feedback on drafts, doesn’t care how much you work and also almost barely ever sees his students? (They also exist! Often in the same department!) This can be gleaned from talking to current graduate students, mostly. Ask them how much they work, what their lives are like, what their PIs are like, etc. A good PI is somewhere in the middle - has high expectations of student work and gives supportive but critical feedback when necessary.

-Professional development opportunities in the department. Are there career workshops? What about academic job market ones? Is there a departmental pot to send students to conferences, and how big is it? (Or do you get an individual pot? That’s the best!) How often do students present their work at conferences? Do current students talk about hobnobbing with bigwigs in the field or do they seem to not really know what’s going on? Are there grant-writing workshops? Do students author grants with their PIs? Do they know professors in other departments? Talking to grad students again is the key here, and asking them about recent conference experiences and workshops. But chatting with the PI is another way. Ask him what kind of professional development opportunities he provides for his students. If he has no idea what you are talking about, yellow flag! If once you explain it he recovers and says something interesting…yellow flag at half-mast.

-Time-to-degree. This is going to be tied to the above. But how long does it take PhDs to finish? Are they speeding through in 4-5 years or are they languishing around for 6-7? You can ask the departmental secretary about this; she always knows. If she doesn’t, she can get it from the DGS. If nobody knows, treat that like a yellow flag. Departments that don’t keep track of this are often (but not always) the departments in which students take the longest to finish, and they don’t track it because they don’t want to know.

-Prestige of the university. If your son aspires to an academic position, this doesn’t really matter that much - it’s more about the department. But if he’s considering non-academic careers, it will matter a bit more. I’d leave it at the bottom of the list as an absolute tie-breaker. I kind of went to a prestigious university for my PhD on accident, but I think it had a moderate impact now that I’ve gone into non-academic research.

Different people have different opinions on where location should reside on the list. One argument I’ve made before is that going to the best program for you in an undesirable location may give you more flexibility after your PhD - you’ll be more competitive for the top departments in better locations. Another argument I’ve heard - that I also agree with - is that if academia is your goal, your graduate school might be the last chance you get to pick where you live. I think my conclusion at this point is that delayed gratification stinks and a PhD is still 5-6 years of some of the prime years of your life that you’ll never get back. If you have the chance to live somewhere awesome, take it. I have mixed feelings about having gone for a PhD, but one thing I don’t have mixed feelings about is getting to live in New York for 6 years in my 20s.

I’m not the OP, but I appreciate the answers, too. My younger daughter has applied to several Ph.D. programs and I know very little about the process.

In my daughter’s case, the first indication of departments’ interest in her application was an invitation for an on-campus interview, which came in mid-winter. She had a formal acceptance by early spring. The acceptance included an explanation of her salary & benefits, since it’s a funded program during which she is considered an employee of the university. She is not interested in pursuing an academic career, and wasn’t interested in TA positions; she wanted to do research as part of her program.

When weighing multiple offers, students should look at the reputation of the department, the length of the program (how long it takes to get the doctorate and how many years of funding comes with the offer) and the salary/benefits. For my daughter, it was additionally very important for the department to have strong industry ties since she’s not planning on becoming a professor.

My son had multiple offers, all with full funding and stipends, and the acceptances all came at varying times (with money), but final decision had to be made by one national date…either April 15 or another date…don’t remember for sure. The offers came in anywhere from January - March.

The acceptances also came with invites to visit and those visits were also funded (travel costs and hotel).

As it got closer to “decision day,” a couple of the schools increased their stipends to match son’s best stipend offer.

Overall, I found the PhD application process to be very dysfunctional compared to the college application process. As other people have said, how the process works differs by program. In my experience with computer science, acceptances were sent out months before rejections. I personally found out I was rejected from my undergraduate school for grad school, because I saw posters in the department advertising the visit weekend.

Your son should consider whether health care is included or just offered (premium cost paid by student). The ability to keep him on your plan could go away soon if the ACA is repealed. Also, he may want to ask questions about where the funding for the dept and his PI’s work comes from. My kid is applying for Physics PhD programs as well this year, and I have concerns about (for example) whether Dept of Energy funding will hold steady for the next 5 years.

DS went through a physics PhD application couple of years ago.

Acceptances and rejections start being sent out in late January. They start filling the slots and send out more decisions as acceptees start committing. The longer one goes without an acceptance, the less likely it becomes. It’s awful if you don’t have an early accept someplace to have the rejections dribbling in one at a time. Majority of the seats are taken by late Feb. Some programs never replied (presumably a rejection). Applicant may be flown out for an interview in Jan/Feb. Some of these are group affairs. Accepted applicants will often be put in touch with current grad students to ask questions of them.

All worthwhile positions will come with funding. There may be offers of ‘fellowship’ for one semester or more, which exempts one from work, if the candidate is desirable to the program. These can be offered sometime after the initial acceptance as an additional inducement. Amounts of stipend vary but really are in the ballpark with each other, as is health insurance. Cost of living, of course, varies quite a bit as well.

Organized accepted student weekend visits happen mostly in late Feb/early march. They are at least partially funded by the dept and are helpful to attend.

Many physics programs have high attrition rate amongst PhD students. I would ask what the reasons are that people leave the program, whether it is difficult comprehensive exams, difficulty finding advisors, etc.

DS ended up changing his mind and is now a happy math PhD student.

From what we have seen, the health care costs do vary. They are fully covered for some programs, a couple hundred dollars for the student at others, and fully the student’s responsibility to pay the premiums for the school offered plan, which seems to be around $1800 at most of the schools my kid is looking at. $1,800 is a lot out of the measly stipends at most of them… so it isn’t something to ignore.

I was already nervous; now I feel terrified for my daughter for what she’ll be going through for the next few months. Sigh. We never stop being parents, do we?

No we don’t, @rosered55 ! You just have to have faith in your kiddo: that he knows what he’s doing, that he’ll have good options, that he’ll chose wisely. And he will, on all counts :slight_smile:

I think, just like college, one needs to apply to a variety of selectivity in terms of programs. A well prepared student, with good advising, should be able to place into an acceptable program, I would think.

I would strongly disagree to a large extent for most fields unless the department in question has a great track record* for job placement in reasonably good tenure-track academia and non-academia related jobs.

In many fields, there’s far too many top 8-15 PhD program graduates chasing far too few tenure track and/or related non-academia related jobs. And the odds get precipitously worse with those who graduated from programs ranked below 15…especially in oversaturated fields.

Consequently, I agree with past undergrad advisers, older relatives with academia experience, and friends who are recent PhD graduates/current PhD students that if one doesn’t have what it takes to get into a top 8-15 PhD program as a fully-funded PhD student, one should seriously consider pursuing other educational/career options.

  • Take what departmental websites/official university stats say with a few grains of salt and examine the figures carefully. Some have been known to manipulate or even inflate employment/placement stats so they don't put off grad school applicants from their department so they can maintain their supply of TAs/RAs.

As usual, Juillet hits the nail on the head. As a PhD who went through both the academic and non-academic job track, I will add to her answer and give my two cents.

Choosing a grad school requires perhaps even more specificity than looking at the department level. You really should identify specific professors in each department doing whatever you consider interesting research and try to determine the outcomes of students graduating from these labs. Getting a job after receiving a PhD is all about networking. Are these potential professors plugged into their field and well respected? Can they set you up with connections? Sure, papers are the currency as a PhD, but the real value of a mentor as far a jobs are concerned comes in their ability to introduce you to the right people.

Wow, thank you all for this wealth of information. I do know that S has researched the profs to help shape the list of schools - based on the specific field/topic he is interested in. He has applied to a range of schools, from “reach” to “safety” if that is such a thing in PhD admissions.

Lots of things that I had not considered, from health insurance to continued funding. Thank you to all who shared their knowledge.

While I had conversations with my daughter during the application process for a PhD, I no longer had any role other than a very very minor one as a sounding board. Her faculty connections and peers were much better than I at giving advice and information. I learned about most of what has been posted here after the offers came in: differences in stipends, health insurance, teaching requirements, mentor choices, even selectivity. I didn’t really need to know beforehand or afterward, but it was interesting. She only applied to two programs after a careful process of choosing.

There is a lot of focus on this thread on employability, but I think that even at this level, interest, even “passion”, should be the guide and the reason for participation. A PhD program is truly a chance to do what you love. So being in a place where you can do that is the number one priority.

The Department of Energy may very well not even exist in 5 years. Funding for scientific research is likely to take a drastic plunge as well.

My son (chemistry) is going through this right now, too. He submitted his applications on the first day they were open and once the letters of recommendation began being submitted he started to receive acceptances, e-mailed letters which listed his stipend, health insurance info, etc. With his first acceptance came an invite (completely on their dime) which included open house visits, interviews, pairing with other PhD students in the program, etc. So far he has received 3 acceptances (no rejections yet, and applied to I believe 7 PhD programs) and has been invited to visit another college soon that he was accepted to.

He has been in contact with professors before he submitted his applications (to find out if they are accepting students into their program and what they are working on and if it is of interest to him). He has followed up contact with those professors (not in a pesty manner) after several months (resulting in one stating he would pull his application to take a look).

What my son is considering is the research he would be doing (must be something he really likes), the location of the college and how it coincides with how he wants to live and activities he takes part in, and would like to be in a place where it is close to places to go/things to do/restaurants, etc.