New NY Scholarship "Specifically for Illegal Immigrants" (NY Times)

<p>GMTplus7 --</p>

<p>If you’re still a citizen, GMTplus7, you’re probably entitled to in-state rates from the state that you ex-patriated from, particularly if you’re paying state income tax. But it’s possible that you’re not paying state income tax on account of relinquishing your state citizenship (at the advice of a tax preparer, perhaps, who said you can avoid state income tax liability by signing a simple form). Above, you said that you’re paying property tax – but that makes you a tax-payer. It does not make you a citizen or – more to the point – a resident. These laws and these private programs are directed at residents. You and others here are framing this as though programs that have a direct benefit to other people are diversions of your funds, as if your taxes don’t already come back to you many times over in terms of services and benefits that your profit from. Your property taxes, for instance, go towards things like improving schools and roads and bridges. And while your children are attending school elsewhere, the school system adds value to your home. As do the roads and bridges that allow people to get to your home and for your tenants to use your home as a place for them to take their children to those schools and get to their jobs using those roads and bridges. You skip right past all of that and see someone else getting something and think that they’re using your money as if you’re getting nothing out of it.</p>

<p>In some states (and, as I said expressly before, probably not border states), there may be a direct beneficial impact for the state to provide accessibility to post-secondary education for all of its residents. This benefit works for everyone because it is an investment that will increase the tax base, reduce crime and promote an overall higher quality of life. Those positives get reduced to zero. And the people from the border states who are shouldering a disproportionate burden of immigration – legal or illegal because the federal laws don’t allocate the distribution of immigrants across the country – should be glad for these kinds of programs in other states. While it’s conceivable that people who are currently abroad may be attracted by such programs, those people are coming in to the country and not moving into a border state, PLUS it is more likely to attract people who have already crossed the border and are within the U.S., thereby drawing down immigrants from border states. Instead, the resentment of people who don’t have federal paperwork in order runs so high, they can’t see past the benefits that inure to them and just want to see an environment as hostile as possible across the country.</p>

<p>Immigration laws – the complicated paperwork-driven laws that are used to decide whether a person is in the U.S. lawfully or not – are not some moral code. They are more arbitrary than anything. They’re also entirely the domain of the federal government, not the state government. From setting limits, dictating the paperwork requirements, and failing to enforce the laws or tighten the borders. The states, for their part, have to deal with the hand they’re dealt. If someone is a productive member of their community, the state need not make it their business to do the enforcement work that the federal government refuses to do. And the state has a choice to make the community hostile to immigrants or make the community welcoming – particularly to the kinds of immigrants who place a premium on having their children attend college, as those people are often pretty good people to have in a community. Since the distribution of immigrants, legal and illegal, is not evenly distributed and the ability of some states to absorb immigrants is better than others, different states can have different approaches to this. It’s really absurd to think that Arizona’s approach should be the same as New York’s and that they should be the same as Iowa. State lawmakers have a job to do and it’s to make their states better places to live, work and play for their citizens. All of them. And THEIR citizens are not the same as the federal government citizens since they don’t have control or a say as to who is in this country or why.</p>

<p>Frankly, it makes more sense to refuse in-state tuition benefits to families who have bad driving records. Driving too fast or without taillights is a criminal offense. And it endangers others. It creates a cost for the state in terms of enforcement and other programs needed to ameliorate the negative outcomes. It’s something that people usually know they are doing and that they’re doing it to the potential detriment of others around them. They are far more worthy of the pejorative “illegal” than people who don’t have all their immigration paperwork lined up in order. Nobody seems to be concerned about the fact that bad drivers – and children of bad drivers – get in-state tuition…because, I submit, that might impact them or people they know and like. But as long as people are coming up with reasons to disqualify residents of a state from in-state tuition, why does the conversation begin (and end) with whether their federal paperwork is in order? I’d like to see the laundry list of disqualification grounds fully fleshed out.</p>

<p>Let’s not draw from from American values back in 1907. In 1907, it was considered normal in America that women couldn’t vote and that small children should work in swearshops.</p>

<p>@ GMTplus7,</p>

<p>The point wasn’t that we should be giving tuition discounts to Canadians. The point is that most “illegal immigrants” aren’t the stereotypical Mexicans sneaking across the border. Most arrived here legally and remain here under far more complicated circumstances, in many cases involving technical violations of law, such as visa overstays or status violations that could arise for a thousand complicated reasons. And the immigration laws that are violated in those circumstances are for the most part not criminal laws, but civil laws. So the rhetoric that brands people–especially innocent children–as “lawbreakers” automatically deserving of harsh treatment, is just misplaced.</p>

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<p>Well, I quite agree that times have changed and we no longer see the world as we saw it in 1907. In some areas, like women’s suffrage, child labor,and racial equality, we’ve made great progress. In other areas we’ve regressed, in my opinion. I don’t count our current harsh, restrictive, and punitive immigration policies as progress. And I think it has cost our nation a lot of its standing in the world. We used to represent hope, and an opportunity for a fresh start free from Old World forms of oppression. Now, not so much. We pay a price for that. </p>

<p>And then we profess to be baffled that the rest of the world doesn’t love and admire us as much as they once did. Well, doh!</p>

<p>I will always be grateful for the opportunities this country gave my grandfather and millions like him. Without that, I wouldn’t be where I am today; but even more important, people like my grandfather never could have made the amazing transition they did. But I’m deeply saddened that so many of us seem to have decided those “up by the bootstraps” values no longer matter, and it’s time to just close and lock the door behind us. To me, that’s just a deep betrayal of our nation’s finest history and heritage.</p>

<p>@bclintonk, </p>

<p>I am all for the U.S. welcoming immigrants with open arms. Heck, I’m an immigrant. So what is so morally repugnant to you about expecting immigrants to come here legally if they want to partake in the American dream? Should you be obligated to feed dinner to every Dick, Harry, Francois, Vladimir & Juan who decides to crash your dinner party? The resources of the U.S. are not infinite, any more than the resources for feeding guests at a dinner party. I feel sorry for these kids, but I don’t see why my gov’t should be under legal financial obligation to them. If private individuals want to fund them, then fine.</p>

<p>Fairness dictates that they [illegal aliens] should stand in line like I did and come/reside in the U.S. legally.</p>

<p>And you are wrong, the world still does love and admire us. That is why I always see a long line of visa applicants outside the U.S. embassy and not at the embassy of other countries. Why are you putting illegal aliens in the U.S. ahead of these law-abiding people?</p>

<p>@ D’yer Maker,</p>

<p>Thanks for the thoughtful reply.</p>

<p>Yes, I am a U.S. citizen, but presently not a U.S. resident and presently not paying state income tax because I don’t earn income in any state. I do pay U.S. federal income taxes and pay local property taxes on my home in a U.S. state, but my kids are no more eligible for in-state college tuition than someone who only owns a vacation home in the state but doesn’t reside there.</p>

<p>Hanna,
“That’s quite a challenge if you don’t speak the language of your “home.””</p>

<p>-Not really. We have very many college and Grad. (the most probably Medical) students who barely speak English. They do just fine and in many cases better than others. More insentives to do well… I do not know… There are even HS exchange students who have great English challenges and still put in classes ahead, not behind. Young person can pick up language (all aspects, speaking, reading…) very quickly, unless the process is interropted by “help” which is NOT helpful at all.</p>

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This seems like an overgeneralization. Some have heavy accents and may be difficult to understand if teaching classes or breakout study groups, but they do speak English.</p>

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Absolutely. I am a conservative, governmental assistance should be granted carefully.</p>

<p>Which is why I made clear, repeatedly, that I participate in and support private assistance. That’s what I believe being a conservative is about. Identifying a problem and doing your very best to contribute to its solution. It’s not about taxing someone else to create a bureaucracy to do it, and it’s certainly not about saying that’s not the government’s job and turning your back.</p>

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I vehemently disagree. We are as generous and welcoming as every before, but we can’t afford to import millions of poor people as a profit making venture for the wealthy in other countries. Nor should we. They are human beings, not commodities.</p>

<p>GMT – You should double check about your state residency. When you ex-patriate out of country, you don’t become stateless. You retain the citizenship of your state. By federal law you remain a voter in the precinct where you were registered immediately prior to ex-patriating, so you can vote for city dog catcher there. And every state that I’m aware of allows in-state tuition for ex-patriated residents – provided you have not expressly relinquished your citizenship in that state. And even then I know people who rescinded that – after years of not paying income taxes – after being admitted in-state in time to claim the tuition break. Your voter registration and driver’s license are probably still valid, right?</p>

<p>It is NOT governemnt job to provide education to ANYBODY, they are NOT doing a good job, wasting tons of taxpayers money. Illegals are a subset of this ANYBODY.</p>

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This is so silly I can’t even believe it. We are the brokest nation in the entire history of the world and you are worrying about our not spending enough money to buy admiration? How 'bout we become admired because we did the tough, mature serious things necessary to get our fiscal house in order?</p>

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It’s not? Do you mean the federal government? Or government at any level?</p>

<p>zooser,
Whatever, it just doing horrible job in k - 12 and pulling the level of private education down since private schools still have the same academic programs. I mean, they cannot have physics for several years starting in 6th grade as one example. The program is pretty much the same all across and it is really low level in the USA even in comparison to some underdeveloped countries.<br>
Government job is to take care of army, border control, police. It cannot do these very well, why we think that gorenment burrocrats cantake care of anything else? All it can do is to take money from some of us (about 50%) and use it inefficiently to some tasks priamrily for the purpose of buying votes for the next election. It has to find the way to take care of army, border control, police because it exists to do so and NOTHING else, it is the purpose of government. It has stay away from everything else as it only inbvolves to collect the money for self-fullfilling purposes (to buy votes to get re-elected).</p>

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There is some real truth to that.</p>

<p>I guess where I disagree is that I think the federal government should have vastly different responsibilities than the state and local governments. I think the federal government should pretty much stick to national defense, interstate commerce, and printing money.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t be comfortable with education being privatized across the board.</p>

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Why not? I’ve never heard of that rule.</p>

<p>People who say we should willingly look the other way and let any poor soul immigrate and illegally reside in the U.S. ignore some fairly significant and detrimental impacts that large numbers of unskilled and immigrants have brought to these shores. Such advocates ignore the detrimental impact upon low-skill and poorly educated job seekers [U.S. citizens]. They ignore the impact on already weak public schools, where ESL programs consume scarce dollars that are needed for the kids whom are already “left behind,” so to speak. They ignore the exploitation of illegal immigrant workers by the very business owners who whine about the prospect of paying a competitive wage and benefits. They ignore the very real problems in the justice system, where undocumented aliens are often given a pass on offenses unless they kill or injure someone of means. An earlier post brought up driving violations, which typically of course are not felonies or a major crime. But if you’ve ever sat in traffic court where a offender feigned no english language proficiency and watched that person get very light treatment compared to “a native” with identical circumstances, and then see that person laugh out loud in english on their way out of the courthouse, then you know what I’m talking about.</p>

<p>No, no one complains very much about Canadians or Irishmen whom overstay their visa, for reasons that were eloquently elaborated elsewhere in this thread. No one complains about the Cuban community in South Florida or the Vietnamese or Hmong in Seattle. It’s fairly clear that there are lots of undocumented persons in the Chinese communities on the east coast. Anyone remember the Golden Venture? Where are their advocates, bringing light to their plight?</p>

<p>zoos,
"they cannot have physics for several years starting in 6th grade as one example.<br>
Why not? I’ve never heard of that rule. "
-Private schools have to go thru certification process. It does not look that they will have a chance of beeing certified if their program is way way off main stream, government constructed/approved academic program. Well, my D. was in best private k -12 in our area. We had students traveling from different state and som travel whole hour one way. The program was pretty much the same as in public with much fewer number of AP classes. The difference was in teachers. Although they were paid much less than public teachers,they were great quality teachers and most of them never left despite of pay. As far as I can tell in comparison to our area public schools, the academic program is the same all accross. I have never heard of JH teaching HS material (except maybe for a bit of Foreign language and algebra, which I would not count because it is buy far not enough), which they really should if we want to have HS graduates be prepared for college. It should be available for every single student with all ability levels and various future plans for college. Good teacher can teach anybody (I am not talking about disabled who need special programs, I am talking about average healthy students)
But this is not the subject of this thread, besides the fact that since government cannot do it well for its own citizens using citizen’s money, it should not be involved educating citizens of other countires who are here illegally.</p>

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I agree with that.</p>

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Is this a typo, a keypad auto-correct (or auto uncorrect, as it were) or an amusing turn of a phrase???</p>

<p>LakeWashington makes excellent points. </p>

<p>Here in the LA area, 25 years ago, many construction workers particularly roofers and those who hung drywall were black. Now they are Hispanic and many of those are illegal. Meanwhile black youth unemployment is extremely high. Those black construction workers used to make enough to support a family. Now the Hispanic construction workers are day laborers who crowd 10 or more to a 2 bedroom home in unsanitary conditions. </p>

<p>The LA Chief of Police wants to create a special rule for illegal drivers. If you have no driver’s license because you are illegal, you get to keep your car. It is not impounded after a traffic offense. If you are a US citizen driving without a license, your car is taken away. </p>

<p>And now with California on the verge of bankruptcy, illegals get in state tuition and are eligible for scholarships. </p>

<p>Encouraging illegals to stay here while California’s unemployment rate remains at 12% is nuts.</p>