eyo777 is definately right in what he says. I didn’t consider UMich as an option when I started looking at colleges, I ruled out anything that wasn’t in the top 10 in the US News rankings, and anything higher than a 20% admissions rate. Then I realized that I had to look at the programs that colleges had, and found that the only colleges I had left were MIT and UC Berkeley, for Nuclear engineering. I found out later that UMich had a phenomenal Nuclear engineering program, and apparently they have the best grad nuclear engineering program as well.
Since I was a transfer student (so closer to grad school than freshmen, and already knowing what I wanted) I started looking at departmental programs off the bat. Michigan is top 10/11 in my majors (according to US News, even!). I was ecstatic that I got into such a phenomenal program.
I also got into Vanderbilt (which was honestly a super backup departmental program-wise!), and when I told my mom about deciding to go to Michigan she pointed to the US News generic rankings saying, “But look, Vanderbilt is #14, you don’t want to go to a top 15 school in the nation?” I rolled my eyes -so- hard.
Then at Michigan I was talking with a Chinese international student doing the same double majors as me, and my acceptance to Vanderbilt came up. He was mega impressed and asked why I would choose Michigan over Vanderbilt, a “top 15 school.” I was just like, “Dude… You’re in the same program and don’t even know how good you have it, lol…”
It’s a minor annoyance, sure. But why is it only people “in the know” that do painstaking research to get some objective facts that have to know it’s such an awesome school?
Also, Vanderbilt doesn’t even have as many top 10 (or even 20) programs as Michigan, so the US News ranking seems really overrated (same for some other schools like Tufts, Emory, etc.).
@Alexandre I don’t understand your “ranking”?
You claim US News is biased against public universities. But then you build a list with 14 of the top 15 as private universities.
And then keep all of the USNWR top 25 save two and just add in Michigan.
@Superpoofi That is a very good point. When I search for schools for my D, I look up specific program rankings instead of school overall rankings. For instance, UMN-TC has an excellent ChemE program within top 5 while the school ranking is far below the top 25. However, many HS students do not have an intended major in mind, sometimes not even a general field idea.
ClarinetDad, first of all, I did not “build a list” It is not “my ranking”. Although I know far more about universities than the folks at the USNWR, I do not profess to be qualified to rank universities. I merely listed/grouped universities according to their Peer Assessment Score; the reputation rating assigned to universities by academe. Perhaps I should have made that clear.
But if you look closely, you will see that according to that measure, Cal is among the top 10, and Michigan among the top 15. That’s two public universities among the top 15 Currently, the USNWR ranking does not have a single public university inside the top 20, let alone the top 15. That alone presents a major shift in the perception of public universities, wouldn’t you say?
You will also notice that Texas-Austin, UIUC and Wisconsin-Madison are all among the top 35 according to their Peer Assessment Score, while they do not make the top 40 according to the USNWR.
Those may seem like subtle differences, but they clearly indicate a disconnect between what academe thinks, and what the USNWR attempts to sell. I personally think that academe’s collective elite knows a lot more about universities that the folks at the USNWR.
My problem with the USNWR isn’t with the ranking itself, but with the methodology and with data integrity. If the methodology weren’t flawed and/or biased against public universities, and if the data were accurately and consistently collected and used, I would not question the output.
us news ranks public universities lower because they have larger class sizes and faculty to student ratios than elite privates.
^^^…both of which are easily manipulated. Alexandre has proven this many, many times. Thus his comment above about methodology and data integrity.
Also public universities r ranked lower because they r required to have a high percentage of in state students which means less selectivity than elite privates which can accept the finest across the country and do not need a certain number from a state. For example unc is required to have 82% in state students so their in state students have lower test scores and gpa than out of state. Their average act is like 27-31 but out of state have to have like 34+ to be competitive which means wider range of intellectual ability of students than privates universities which have act scores of 33-35. However umich is now 50% out of state (used to be only 33%) and its selectivity was driven by large increase of out of state applicants umich average act used to be 25-31 but now its 30-34 because of out of state increase which means higher standards. @rjkofnovi @Alexandre
^UNC is more concerned with educating the students of their state than they are with their USNWR ranking. Good for them.
UNC ACT range for the fall of 2016 was 28-33. Michigan was 30-34.
UNC by law must accept 82% of students who live in NC. Michigan does not have to follow this law. If the law changed in NC, its scores - which are not that far behind Michigans- would likely increase.
82% of their students need to be NC residents; not admit 82% of NC students I would guess you meant.
Yes the 82% need to be NC residents.
The inconvenient truth that the UNC slappies seem to be ignoring is the fact that Michigan has about 10,000 more undergraduates enrolled at the A2 campus as compared to CH. In other words, the actual numbers of Michigan students enrolled in A2 is probably very close to the instate numbers of those at UNC. So the comment that UNC is more dedicated to teaching instate students is just plain silly. Michigan gets penalized for its size; at USNWR and among those who look at percentages instead of absolute numbers.
@rjkofnovi why else would unc enforce an 18% limit on out of state if they arent focusing on educating the in state first.
The states of Michigan and North Carolina currently have almost identical populations. U-M educates approximately 55% of its undergraduates from the state of Michigan and UNC educates approximately 82% of its undergraduates from the state of North Carolina. That roughly translates to almost 15,400 Michigan residents taught in A2 and 14,500 North Carlolina residents taught in CH. It seems to me that it is Michigan who does a better job of matriculating its top students into the state flagship. Absolute numbers mean more to me than percentages where Michigan is concerned. Michigan has the resources to handle these large numbers and still provide a world class education.
Eeeee127, as rjk points out, the University of Michigan offers more seats to in-state students than does UNC. In terms of their total populations, Michigan has a population of 9.91 million, compared to North Carolina’s 9.94. So North Carolina has a slightly larger population, and yet it enrolls fewer in-state students than Michigan.
In-state undergraduate students:
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 16,488
University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill: 15,052
https://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/student-profile
https://oira.unc.edu/files/2016/09/Fall-2016-Headcount-x-School-X-Education-Level-X-Residency-2.pdf
It just happens that Michigan also enrolls has larger number of OOS and international students. Altogether, Michigan has roughly 10,000 more undergraduate students than UNC. However, that does not stop Michigan from enrolling a large number of in-state students. But as rjk points out, Michigan has a significantly larger endowment and larger revenue streams and can therefore manage the additional enrollment numbers.
From your previous posts you seem to think more highly of UNC than of Michigan. 
No I like umich better because half of the student body is out of state so you meet plenty of students from all 50 states and countries. Umich is more nationally and internationally renowned than unc. I also pay in state tuition for umich and would only go to unc if I got a full ride.
@Alexandre - just seeing your reply to me as I was not tagged.
Can you kindly elaborate on the validity and accuracy of Peer Assesment Scores?
Who completes the surveys and for how many schools do they rank?
ClarinetDad16, the Peer Assessment Score is the average rating assigned to universities by university presidents and deans of admission of peer institutions. In the case of Michigan, peer institutions means national research universities, which includes all members of the American Association of Universities, such as Berkeley, Boston University, Brown, Caltech, Carnegie Mellon, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Emory, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Michigan State, New York University, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Penn, Penn State, Princeton, Purdue, Stanford, Texas-Austin, Texas-A&M, UCLA, UCSD, UIUC, UNC, USC, UVA, Vanderbilt, Washington University-St Louis, Wisconsin-Madison to name a few.
The rating is out of a 5 point scale, from 1 “marginal” to 5 “distinguished”.
Outliers (the two highest and the two lowest scores) are not included in the rating in order to avoid “strategic voting”.
According to the Peer Assessment Score, the top universities are:
- Harvard University 4.9/5.0
- Massachusetts Institute of Technology 4.9
- Stanford University 4.9
- Princeton University 4.8
- Yale University 4.8
- University of California-Berkeley 4.7
- California Institute of Technology 4.6
- Columbia University 4.6
- Johns Hopkins University 4.6
- University of Chicago 4.6
- Cornell University 4.5
- Brown University 4.4
- Duke University 4.4
- University of Michigan-Ann Arbor 4.4
- University of Pennsylvania 4.4
- Dartmouth College 4.3
- Northwestern University 4.3
- Carnegie Mellon University 4.2
- University of California-Los Angeles 4.2
- University of Virginia 4.2
- Georgia Institute of Technology 4.1
- Rice University 4.1
- Vanderbilt University 4.1
- Emory University 4.0
- Georgetown University 4.0
- University of Notre Dame 4.0
- University of Southern California
- University of Texas-Austin
- University of Wisconsin-Madison
- Washington University-St Louis
I think this is the most accurate rating of universities out there, derived by those who know best, and it actually means something as it measures the reputation of universities as seen by academe.
Out of curiosity, what is Washington U’s score (and rank)?
The schools I consider its closest undergraduate peers are at 4.2/#18, 4.1/#21 and 4.0/#24.
I’ve tried to find that on the web but USNews has it locked on the WUSTL ranking page…