New study: 'Elite' Schools should boost low income enrollment

Parents Forum
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<p>" Why do you think it is "the darker side"? I don't, except when it lacks transparency."</p>

<p>Lol, Mini. It is excatly because of its lack of full, accurate, and timely disclosure of information, that I call IT the "darker side." Obviously, transparency is best defined as the full, accurate, and timely disclosure of information. :)</p>

<p>On a serious note, when reading this latest study, I would highly recommend to check the details of one the study quoted: </p>

<p>Carnevale, Anthony P., and Stephen J. Rose, 2004. “Socioeconomic Status, Race/Ethnicity, and Selective College Admission.” In America’s Untapped Resource: Low-Income Students in Higher Education, Ed. Richard D. Kahlenberg, New York: The Century Foundation.</p>

<p>It is available on the web site of the Century Foundation.</p>

22

<p>"We may find that out in the next paper (on "procedural bias")."</p>

<p>It would be a much shorter paper if they focused on the procedural elements of the admissions game that are not biased towards higher-income students.</p>

<p>Taken as a whole, the COFHE schools offer more opportunity for very low income students today than ever before and place more priority on enrolling them. The limiting factor is still the secondary school system, which by large lacks a mechanism for encouraging such students to consider COFHE schools (with the exception of large urban magnet schools).</p>

<p>In any case, I think a much larger national issue is the hurdles placed on low-income students in obtaining a public college education in their home states. The Williams paper makes for fascinating reading, but it really is dealing with the tip of the iceburg.</p>

23

<p>"Thanks, xiggi, but I'm aware of the agenda. Most organizations do have one. I am troubled by the idea that just because someone holds views that differ from our own, we should simply ignore them."</p>

<p>Neither should we accept the representation of someone as an "expert" without checking his contributions to the debate, or evaluate his bias. In this particular case, a claim that 500 points (out of 1600) hardly makes a difference should raise everyone's eyebrows. While the reference to someone with a 1000 SAT doing well at an Ivy League may be true, it remains purely anedoctal. I am sure we could balance that one with a story of 1600 SAT who struggled for four years. None of this changes the statistical evidence that a difference of 500 points is important, especially when starting at 1300 or 1400. Does anyone believes that a 800 SAT is the same as a 1300?</p>

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<p>Well, Loren Pope said if you score a 450 SAT score on the verbal (the old SAT) you can succeed at almost every school.</p>

<p>So your 800 number might be low.</p>

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<p>Rosner has been around a long, long time. Though he may be biased, he was considered enough of an "expert" to testify in the UMich Law School Affirmative Action case. </p>

<p>He did not claim that 500 points "hardly makes a difference" or that a score of 800 is "the same as" 1300. He said that "four or five hundred points may or may not be significant in indicating potential for success in college." </p>

<p>And yes, such a statement should definitely raise eyebrows -- and it did. Hence, the tangent from the OP. </p>

<p>Note that Rosner did not say that a score of 1500 was not an indication of potential success in college. One could argue both that a score of 1500 is an indication of potential success in college but that a score of 1000 is neither an indication of potential success or failure. This would be because without other information, it's impossible to know what a score of 1000 actually means, whereas with a score of 1500, we at least know that it means that the individual mastered a particular body of knowledge and therefore it is likely that he is capable of mastering another body of knowledge. The kid with the 1000 could just be a kid whose mother told him "you don't learn nothin' from books" and has a lot of catching up to do. I believe that some studies out of UC have shown that students can and do catch up when given the opportunity.</p>

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<p>"After a three-year validity study analyzing the power of the SAT I, SAT II, and high school grades to predict success at the state's eight public universities, University of California (UC) President Richard Atkinson presented a proposal in February 2001 to drop the SAT I requirement for UC applicants. The results from the UC validity study, which tracked 80,000 students from 1996-1999, highlighted the weak predictive power of the SAT I, with the test accounting for only 12.8% of the variation in FGPA. SAT II's and HSGPA explained 15.3% and 14.5% of the variation, respectively. After taking SAT II and HSGPA into account, SAT I scores improved the prediction rate by a negligible 0.1% (from 21.0% to 21.1%), making it a virtually worthless additional piece of information. Furthermore, SAT I scores proved to be more susceptible to the influence of the socioeconomic status of an applicant than either the SAT II or HSGPA."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.fairtest.org/facts/satvalidity.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.fairtest.org/facts/satvalidity.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Well, I'm afraid I do not see much difference between my paraphrasing and what Rosner tried to say. </p>

<p>As far as Rosener being an expert witness, here's a little tidbit of his testimony:</p>

<p>THE COURT: First you better ask him and lay a foundation, because his expertise -- I mean, I let him kind of go on a lot last time, and in fact, I thought about it and thought about it and probably let him go on too much. From now on we're going to answer the questions. And I haven't heard any -- why don't you lay a foundation if he has expertise in that area.
THE COURT: First of all, have you had any training, statistical training or anything of that nature?
THE WITNESS: I don't have any formal statistical training, no. </p>

<p>THE COURT: Is there a paper I can read that you have done on this? Is there anything other than your anecdotal discussions with people?
THE WITNESS: Probably the -- there is a test that we will talk about that I have compiled that, in the context of this testimony, that I just compiled a couple of weeks ago and that's, I think, the only thing.
THE COURT: Just compiled a couple weeks ago?
THE WITNESS: Yes. </p>

<p>MR. KOLBO: Your Honor, if I can just make it clear, we have an objection on foundation. We don't -- we believe this witness hasn't been qualified as an expert on test design and psychometrics and --</p>

<p>THE COURT: I agree with you, and that's what I thought we were getting into. </p>

<p>MS. MASSIE: But he doesn't have to, as an expert, to be qualified as an expert, he doesn't have to have specialized academic training. I think we agree about that.</p>

<p>THE COURT: I absolutely agree, but he has to have more than anecdotal kinds of information if he is going to testify as an expert. Anyhow, let's go. Let me -- we heard, we have heard from experts, so we know what they are, including Dr. Shapiro who testified before, who by training, by every kind of imaginable thing has the expertise to testify in testing areas and statistics and so forth. The only reason I mention it, I'm looking at your exhibits and -- </p>

<p>MS. MASSIE: I think Mr. Rosner's testimony will build on Professor Shapiro's.</p>

<p>THE COURT: It may build on it, but he's got to have some expertise other than the fact that he is a lawyer and he works for a company that gives classes on testing.</p>

<p>THE COURT: Have you done any testing of your own, done anything like that?
THE WITNESS: I have talked to minority students.
THE COURT: My question is, have you done any testing?
THE WITNESS: No. </p>

<p>Nuff said!</p>

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<p>1Down2togo, I am not sure what point you are trying to make, but there are plenty of sources that repeat the same information ... without making it necessary true. </p>

<p>The complete story of the role of the UC in the development of the new SAT has yet to be written. We all know the sad result of the "conflict" between Atkinson and Gaston Caperton -for some of the sad results, check the WSJ article I quoted in a different post today. </p>

<p>Here's my version of the story:</p>

<p>The Fox and the Gorillas</p>

<p>AtKingKong, the 800 pound gorilla of the UC is asked to give a speech. Obviously, the latest "successes" of the UC in dealing with the AA issues is NOT a great subject for a speech, not his the fact that UC may be the only school that values SAT-II foreign languages by natives. So Atkinson decides to throw a bomb. We will never know how large the influence of his grand-daughter's rote memorization of English was, but dear Richard decided to voice his dismay with or without facts. </p>

<p>Upon his return, and fueled by the unsuspected success of the speech, AtKingKong convenes a council of the remaining higher minds of UC. "Please tell me I did not speak out of school. DO we have anything in our files that could corroborate what I advanced? Please. Please." Sure enough, he fiinds a few chimpanzees ready and willing to throw together some data, even if the "study" postdates the famous speech. </p>

<p>Now, Gaston the Fox receives a few alerts that trouble is brewing in California. After learning of the details of the battle to come, Gaston grabs several of the countless studies that defend the SAT -including some very extensive ones- and flies to California with the best of the best of TCB/ETS. To his great surprise, the mighty UC's proposal is nothing less than a plan to extend the SAT2 writing to the current SAT. Gaston measures the extent of the demand -bringing one of his lesser used test to the level of the regular SAT ... from a mere tens of thousands to millions a year. </p>

<p>Gaston capitulates quickly, licks his wounds, and flies back to his bucolic campus close to Princeton without ever have had to show his data. ATKingKong beats his chest with pride, and all the UC chimps applaud wildly. After all, the bill will only come later. By the time Gaston the Fox lands in New Jersey, he found the time to multiply 1,500,000 times 15 times a good number of years. Boy, that IS a serious number! Ka-ching. Ka-ching. His words echo throughout the Gulfstream : "Let's pop the bubbly, and remind me to send a bottle to Dick! Nah, make it a case from our private reserve!"</p>

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<p>xiggi:</p>

<p>Don't get me started on the SATII Writing, now SATI Writing test. What a meaningless exercise -- "correcting" grammatical errors in some of the worst written, most comprehensively uncorrectable, prose imaginable. And, how quaint, having students scribble mindless essays with a #2 lead pencil in a blue book. Like that has any relevance to writing a paper in college or, for that matter, a business memo. To complete the package, the College Board should really add another section, measuring how many times each student can have his knuckles whacked by a school-marm with a ruler.</p>

<p>And, of course, the real irony in having the UC system demand the Writing test would come from asking the UC's to provide a percentage for the number of college papers actually reads, graded, and returned with written comments to the student by a tenured faculty member.</p>

<p>IMO, the College Board is the biggest racket since the Bulger boys took over running numbers in South Boston.</p>

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<p>xiggi, my point was that the SAT is used in college admissions because its the easy, safe thing to do. And for every quote from once biased source, an equal and opposite quote from another equally biased source can be found. The closer one gets to arguing absolutely one way or another, the more bs you have to deal with.</p>

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<p>Many of these kids might feel very out of place at some of the high-end schools. I think they might be better off as schools where more students come from average backgrounds.</p>

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<p>But barrons, isn't that kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy? I think the same argument was made when all-male schools opened their doors to women. :/</p>

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<p>"IMO, the College Board is the biggest racket since the Bulger boys took over running numbers in South Boston."</p>

<p>For some reason, I seem to be viewed as the last apostle College Board left standing. :) I must assume this come from my refusal to attribute every shortcoming of the college admission process to the infamy known as the SAT. When you REALLY scratch the surface, it is not hard to find that the test has a LOT going for it. Through its arcane manipulations, TC/ETS has been able to equate all SAT tests to date all the way back to 1946. I was not around at that time, but I doubt that so much criticism was uttered against it in the past. Could it be because it was a lot less important then? </p>

<p>One other element of the SAT that is remarkable is its integrity in developing questions that resist most challenges. Anybody believing this to be an easy task, ought to take a look at what is offered by the "other experts." Spend some time reading the synthetic tests produced by the Princeton Review, the Kaplan, or the Robinson of this industry and you will quickly understand my disdain for their technical capabilities. </p>

<p>As I said many times, if this test was so darn awful, the door should be wide open for others to develop a better mouse trap. I believe the ACT tried it and ended up with an almost identical version, minus the stellar test integrity of ETS. The only merit and value of the ACT is that it currently offers a "gaming admission" alternative at some schools that have been asleep at the wheel -this relates to the SAT2 versus ACT acceptance. </p>

<p>Further, when we look at the remaining part of what constitutes an admission file, is there REALLY much that cannot be gamed to death? We could start with the endless games played by high schools that range from watered down IB or AP programs, asinine weighing of classes, and mind-boggling ranking systems. Every time I read a score such as 3.7UW/4.89w, I have to wonder if the school officials who endorsed such circus can sleep at night. Then, we can move to the popularity contests that are aka recommendation letters. I believe that it is would be fair to acknowledge that wealthy parents with kids in wealthy schools will fare a lot better than inner-cities kids when it comes to LOR. Essay ... oh yes, here's an item that cannot be manipulated! Sarcasm set aside, we could go on and on ... passing by entirely fabncated EC that even include Intel finalists who happen to have an entire lab at some school like SUNY working for them.</p>

<p>Thus, in the final analysis, there is good and evil in every element of the admission process. I think that the SAT hardly deserve to be considered the most egregious one.</p>

<p>Ooops, I came all the way to the end of my post and failed to address the racket issue. I believe that people may have a slightly different view where the racket REALLY starts with TCB/ETS. A few questions worth pondering on? </p>

<ol>
<li>Who owns the College Board? </li>
<li>What share of the revenues of TCB and ETS derived from the SAT as opposed to other testing?<br></li>
<li>Would TCB/ETS disappear if the SAT were to be eliminated? How would they fare if the AP would be restricted to a "normal" level?</li>
</ol>

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<p>Racket is probably too generous. Shakedown is probably a better term. Between SATs, SAT IIs, and the AP tests, they pick the pocket of every high school student for an average of what? Several hundred dollars? More?</p>

<p>And, then turn around and SELL demographic data to the colleges that we PAID to give them. Arghh. And, guess what, like any good shakedown, we have NO choice. At least with the mob, we could say, "OK, go ahead and break my kneecap!"</p>

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<p>It is a wonderful business where the owners -who are also the clients- can set and collect fees to be paid by ... others. As you said, students have little choice. They could, however, realize that the AP is a truer racket and take fewer of them -but again someone else tends to pay the fees. </p>

<p>I-dad, you probably would enjoy reading the College Board financial statements. They used to have it online, but the link has been disabled. They probably HAVE to mail an annual report to anyone who request it since they are not-profit. Their 990 must also be public but I think you need something like the Foundation Center to access the records. </p>

<p>Some of their sources of income might be surprising. The fee income of the CSS and other finaid products are substantial. Most of their income is, however, a pass-through, with the largest chunk towards ETS.</p>

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<p>All kids with a 1300? I think that's a bad idea - and I am the king of the importance of the SAT I in relation to GPA movement.</p>

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<p>RE SATS. aside from income.
? Once enrolled, How do these kids compete/keepup/ within their higher scoring mates. Do they get the special courses to bring them up to level or are they in a different program?</p>

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<p>itstoomuch, <a href="http://www.bates.edu/x10969.xml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bates.edu/x10969.xml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.bates.edu/images/sat-pp/pp4.jpg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bates.edu/images/sat-pp/pp4.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.bates.edu/images/sat-pp/pp3.jpg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bates.edu/images/sat-pp/pp3.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.bates.edu/ip-optional-testing-20years.xml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bates.edu/ip-optional-testing-20years.xml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"There are very modest differences in the majors that submitters and non-submitters choose at Bates, but some intriguing patterns: Non-submitters are more likely to major in fields that put a premium on creativity and originality".</p>

<p>" There are modest differences in the career outcomes of submitters and non-submitters, with one glaring exception: the four fields where students have to take another standardized test to gain entrance to graduate programs for medicine, law, an M.B.A. or Ph.D. In fields where success does not depend on further standardized testing—including business executive officers and finance careers—submitters and non-submitters are equally represented". </p>

<p>UC Berkeley has similar results. They should have eliminated the SAT instead of making it bigger.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2001/11/07_sat2.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2001/11/07_sat2.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.ucop.edu/sas/research/researchandplanning/pdf/sat_study.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ucop.edu/sas/research/researchandplanning/pdf/sat_study.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>It was a past president of Harvard who I believe said that a student with a 650 on the verbal SAT could do fine in their curriculum, looks like no special courses would be necessary.</p>

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<p>Do the elite schools have a responsibility to serve a wider range of the public in exchange for their not for profit tax advantages? I think they do; they should provide a public service to more than the wealthy in exchange for real property and other tax breaks.</p>