<p>SAT tests real ability. Anybody can learn how to take a derivative or calculate an area. Not everyone can take those skills and apply them to nonstandard situations. </p>
<p>Oh, I guess math competitions don't measure anything, too, right? Only your ability to take tests? Because they're timed? Yeesh.</p>
<p>Winning math competitions means your great at math competitions and probably math. Do people study for these? </p>
<p>Intelligence comes in many flavors. I do not think standardized test can capture all flavors.</p>
<p>Einstein would have failed a math competition, was he considered intelligent?</p>
<p>Why do people keep invoking hypothetical situations involving Einstein? Do you have evidence of a math competition in which he performed miserably? It's evident that the SAT measures a fluid form of intelligence whereas other determinants in the college application process measure other factors, such as the ability (and willingness) to master a given subject, leadership potential, etc. Different people can place different emphases on these criteria -- personally, I feel that only the SAT (or an equivalent exam) should be used for the purpose of admissions. Obviously, you can have a different opinion, but you can't refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence that shows a fairly strong correlation between the SAT and IQ.</p>
<p>"But I have no doubt that those who score well on the SAT have a greater capacity to contribute to the quality of a classroom discussion or challenge their peers in residence hall discussions. "</p>
<p>That is not what private colleges have found, setting aside UC. Or, they have the "capacity," but apparently they never practiced that capacity in h.s. and/or never carried that over to college.</p>
<p>Classroom achievement is where the rubber meets the road. Unfortunately, though, grade inflation in many schools (many publics, certain privates) distort the quality of that achievement. I used to think that the whole 'h.s. grade inflation' argument was over-played, until some students weighed in on PF on the "5 minutes" they spend on their homework.</p>
<p>Colleges should require high schools to themselves mail to the colleges graded papers directly from the high school office. One should be an in-class paper or essay exam, the other an at-home paper. That, plus pinpointed academic potential of the student, described in the teacher rec (so far, not a part of the UC admissions, but perhaps that will change) would provide a better picture of college classroom potential than the score of a slacker who knows test-taking strategies.</p>
<p>Also, submitting 2 papers along with a rec, differentiates the honest teacher rec from one with personal bias (antagonism). (My D's have never been affected by unethical recs, but I understand that some students are.)</p>
<p>Squiddy:</p>
<p>my quote: And BTW, I had a 1350 on the old SAT, and my son had a 2150 on the new one. With NO money spent on SAT prep. So this isn't sour grapes.
Squddy: I'm sorry -- but what does this mean? That you did well on the SAT, but fared poorly in college? That your son did well on the SAT, but had a 2.0 GPA and did poorly in college? "</p>
<p>Ahem... I graduated Magna Cum Laude, and son's GPA is currently 3.8+ at Top 40 LAC. "What this means" is that I'm not whining about the SAT because I did poorly on it, or because my kid did poorly on it. Hence my comment, "this isn't sour grapes."</p>
<p>This is an age old argument. This article doest present actual Data but contradicts itself in so many ways. They state that mere enrollment in AP couses doent predict success but AP scores do,For example. This should not be the case is grades are ultimately important. Having done this myself and watching both my kids go through the process, I thing we can conclude that 1. Grades and course load predict 'success' in college. 2.SAT scores do seem to reflect a type of intelligence, but scores can improve with coaching.</p>
<p>Ive always felt that the SAT predicts raw potential, while the GPA predicts likelihood of reaching it. I think the real problem is that there are so many advanced courses that scores need to be put into context according to socioeconomic situation. A standardized test is definitely still necessary but maybe the SAT or ACT aren't the answers.</p>
<p>"But I'd be interested in seeing whether it correlates better with junior year grades than with freshman grades. During the freshman and sophomore years, most college students are taking core courses, continuing the same topics they studied in HS but at an elevated level. The opportunities for creative intellectual thought may be relatively constrained at that point. When they're finally choosing and pursuing their majors, as juniors and seniors, we might see more of the logical and deductive abilities that the SAT measures come into fruition."</p>
<p>GADad, my college attempted to find out just this information, they did an internal study and never published any findings. Back in the 1980's, DH and I did Alumni Admissions work for our school. I recall a training session in which we were told the college had compared the SAT scores for an particular class with their final college GPA four years later. They had also compared the high school GPA with the final college GPA. The result? Zero correlation between the SAT scores and college GPA. Major correlation between the high school and college GPA. This isn't really a scientific study, because everyone admitted to this school had a fairly decent SAT score and GPA anyway, so there were no students with really low SAT scores or GPA's to add into the mix. (Probably why they never publicized their results, it was just done for internal use). The college never did decide to go SAT optional, I personally think it was USNWR ranking pressure that kept them from doing so, but I would not be in the least surprised if they join the growing number of SAT-optional schools in the future.</p>
<p>FWIW, Providence College went SAT optional last year, but they said that once students are enrolled they will require them to submit SAT scores, because they are doing a 4 year study on the relationship between SAT scores and success at PC. I'll be curious to see those results.</p>
<p>"Obviously, you can have a different opinion, but you can't refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence that shows a fairly strong correlation between the SAT and IQ."</p>
<p>Begoner ... "overwhelming evidence" ... "fairly strong correlation" ??? I have never seen such a study. Besides both are flawed for showing intelligence ...both are based on schooling intelligence.</p>
<p>If you have not been schooled in the US tradition, you will do poorly on the test, does that make you unintelligent? </p>
<p>SAT only tests a small segment of intelligence. Coupled with GPA, ECs essays etc, you can get a better sense of ability. I think the essay is a better indicator of intelligence.</p>
<p>Einstein is mentioned so often because his life has been so well documented. Fact is his math computation skills were poor for his purposes ... I think he had other interests!</p>
<p>Just a couple of random thoughts as I read thru all these great posts. (the one about seeing a correlation between SAT and junior and senior GPA was just inspired, IMO)</p>
<p>Despite all the controversy, I have found from personal experience that there is a strong correlation between the old SAT and IQ, as well as the Differential Aptitude test I took with all the other 8th graders back in 8th grade. However, I never studied for the SAT. The correlation may go out the window when students prepare for the SAT 1.</p>
<p>Not sure if students who do intense SAT prep really contribute that much to dorm hallway discussions. I wouldn't use an SAT score to assume that someone is all that curious or thoughtful if they got that high score from prior study before taking the SAT 1.</p>
<p>The opportunity to do intense SAT prep is what may render the SAT less valuable as a predictor of college success or anything.</p>
<p>The SAT doesn't predict college success but it cannot be denied that the SAT is an excellent predictor of intelligence- once you take tutoring out of the picture.
Some people, like me, are too poor to get expensive tutors.</p>
<p>dont say just SAT can be coached, ACT can be too. neither test is better than the other for college success indicator. if they are going to take out the sat, then act needs to be taken out too or any other standardized testing because people can be coached for those too. basing admissions just of high school success is inefficient because not all high schools are the same. a 3.0 at high school A might translate to a 4.0 at an easier high school b. standardized testing is a good measuring stick to know where people are at</p>
<p>The test relies so much on skills taught in schools, I find it flawed for determining intelligence. Now doing well on the SAT and high intelligence are not mutually exclusive but for me the SAT does not prove high intelligence. It proves high ability in a school setting.</p>
<p>well colleges need some sort of test that can measure students and sat/act are most practical. anyone except for those who lack resources can be coached to do well on standardized testing or study themselves to do well.</p>
<p>Neither GPA nor the SAT is alone a strong predictor of college performance. It is my belief that even though high SAT scores don't prove intelligence, there is a correlation. Coaching can improve scores dramatically, but in all probability an unintelligent person isn't going to score a 2300. </p>
<p>High school GPA varies too much from school to school and teacher to teacher to be considered a great predictor of college performance. It is, however, a good indication of work ethic and study habits, which are important ingredients in college success. </p>
<p>The studies that compare high school records to college GPA are also flawed because GPA varies by majors. Engineers probably enter college with the highest stats, but often graduate with the lowest GPAs. (I am biased because I am an engineer.)</p>
<p>In my experience, flashes of brilliance are no match for good work habits when it comes to succeeding in college, or life, for that matter. When I'm putting together a project team, I always like to have representatives from both groups, the quick thinkers and the slow and thorough (not suggesting the two are mutually exclusive). I would like to see colleges try to include representatives of both groups in their admissions.</p>
<p>I am an idealist but I want to believe they do.</p>
<p>
[quote]
dont say just SAT can be coached, ACT can be too.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The purpose of the ACT is to test how well you understand what you have been taught, whereas the purpose of the SAT is to test how intelligent you are.</p>
<p>Since you cannot teach intelligence and SAT scores increase with coaching/teaching, it seems to be the case that the SAT is not doing its job of testing for intelligence.</p>
<p>The SAT doesn't test intelligence, though I agree with others that there is probably a decently strong correlation.</p>
<p>While the SAT 'may' be coachable to an extent, an average person in all likelyhood won't be studying their way to a 2400. I think the success stories of people being "coached" have more to do with inexperience with the test itself. I think the high scorers have always had the capacity to achieve a high score. By and large there is zero "strategy" that will significantly raise your score, you have to be able to reason critically at a high level to achieve that score. Some people with high scoring capacity will either get it right away or others will need to do some practice. Whether you can afford a prep course or not your library will most likely have the blue book or you can get it for 12 bucks because otherwise you are doing yourself a disservice.</p>
<p>hehe so how can you tell the difference between a bad and a good student if they are both hard working but only the smarter guy succeeds ??
I suck on the SAT and do not endorse it too. But I think college admission officials should have a benchmark to make decisions.
Or US can change the education system: a final test at the end of senior year to get into college like most asian countries have :)</p>