Newsweek Crowns 25 "New Ivies"

<p>Northwestern and Hopkins (along with the Ivy League, Stanford, Duke, MIT, CalTech, Berkeley, Chicago, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Haverford, Wesleyan, Georgetown, Washington and Lee, Wellesley, Smith, Vassar, Bryn Mawr, & Barnard) are ALREADY among the traditional powerhouses that the top undergrad students in the country have been considering for decades. </p>

<p>These 25 have emerged as the new wave of schools that are benefitting from the glut of superior students applying to the tradional national undergrad powerhouses (which can't handle all of them). Newsweek is saying that these 25 are now emerging as legitimate UNDERGRAD alternatives for the very top students nationally. An increase in the number of top national options would seem to be natural, given that the number of college-age students is peaking, and more families than ever can afford to send kids to these elite and expensive schools (because of huge financial aid options, a stock market boom, and the fact that the thrifty and hard-working World War II generation has been dying out, leaving unprecedented amounts of money to their kids and grandchildren).</p>

<p>Yeah there may be Affirmative Action, legacy, or other predilections, but people still come for some reason..."</p>

<p>Yeah, but do you actually think that the Ivy Leagues are the ONLY institutions that do this?</p>

<p>What are you talking about?</p>

<p>i suppose you are right tourguide; newsweek should have mentioned the schools you listed in an introduction which explained better what the article was aiming for.</p>

<p>This story was also mentioned on the Today show this morning.</p>

<p>"America's 25 (Second Tier) Elite"</p>

<p>Thanks, Pirt. I guess you could add Oberlin, Carlton, and Grinnell to my list of traditional undergrad powerhouses in the first paragraph of post #81. Maybe Brandeis, Hamilton, and Mt. Holyoke too?</p>

<p>The places that are not traditional undergrad elites and got left off the Newsweek 25 (and are probably the most ticked off) would probably be: USC, Bucknell, Wisconsin, Wake Forest, Tulane, Trinity (Conn), Holy Cross, Bates, Colorado College, Connecticut College, Illinois, Maryland, George Washington. But when you think about it, while these are all excellent schools, and I myself would be proud to have attended any of them, they are still probably (1) a flaw or 2 away from competing nationally for top students OR (2) lacking major hooks like most of the 25 do (e.g., Notre Dame's fame and beautiful campus; UCLA's ritzy and glamorous neighborhood; Virginia's gorgeous and historic campus).</p>

<p>Bern, I can see that you are irritated by Newsweek taking the sacred "Ivy" title and bestowing it upon schools outside your athletic conference. But if you go back a few decades, you will see that the term ivy league didn't belong to those 8 schools. It applied to lots of things (including colleges) that were classy, slightly snobby, traditional, Northeast-ish, etc. Even today you can google Ivy League suits, Ivy League haircuts, etc. </p>

<p>A weird sociological phenomenon occurred when the athletic conference was formed using the "ivy league" term, and eventually people began to think those colleges in the league were the ONLY ivy league schools. They were not familiar with the original meaning of the term, and therefore didn't know that places like Williams and Amherst were every bit as "ivy league" as Harvard and Princeton. The big winners in this paradigm shift were the "lesser Ivies" like Brown, Penn, and Cornell, (very good but probably not great colleges when they entered the conference), who rode their new status as one of ONLY 8 Ivies to new heights.</p>

<p>Where is Grinnell and Carleton? So sad.</p>

<p>TourGuide446: No irritation here, I actually find the whole "Ivy League" term (when used outside of the sports conference sense) really obnoxious...I just find it funny that a magazine like Newsweek would write an article about the schools that come after the best schools (aka the second tier). They start off the article saying these AREN'T the best universities but with admissions being more competitive good students are overflowing into these "second tier" (technically speaking...although they are all excellent schools) schools. Just seems like the title that I jokingly put up is more appropriate. </p>

<p>"But if you go back a few decades, you will see that the term ivy league didn't belong to those 8 schools. It applied to lots of things (including colleges) that were classy, slightly snobby, traditional, Northeast-ish, etc. Even today you can google Ivy League suits, Ivy League haircuts, etc."</p>

<p>Btw just to correct you on your history the term "ivy colleges" wasn't coined until 1933 when the sports writer who coined it used it in reference to a few established schools and the sports competition between them...the ones that he referred to specifically were the current 8 plus USMA. In 1935, the term "ivy league" was coined in reference to these same universities (now with USNA added). AFTER these sports-related references many people began to use the term to refer to the WASP social elite normally associated with these schools. So the term didn't apply to "lots of things," like you pointed out prior to any sports reference. From the start it has really been a reference to a sports conference and the term was THEN adapted to refer to other things related to the social elite. </p>

<p>"A weird sociological phenomenon occurred when the athletic conference was formed using the "ivy league" term, and eventually people began to think those colleges in the league were the ONLY ivy league schools. They were not familiar with the original meaning of the term, and therefore didn't know that places like Williams and Amherst were every bit as "ivy league" as Harvard and Princeton."</p>

<p>The original meaning of the term REFERRED specifically to the current 8 plus USNA So people never misconstrued anything thinking that the schools in the league were the only ivy league schools - The schools in the league ARE the only ivy league schools although they are not the only WASPy schools. Places likes Williams and Amherst are every bit as WASPy as the schools in the ivy league.</p>

<p>I'm not pleased with this list. I looked through quickly and didn't see any land grants - what a surprise - such bias against universities normal people can actually afford.</p>

<p>Selecting Notre Dame over...say, Rose-Hulman (also in Indiana) does fit with the ivies, however. Most of the hype comes from having rich alumnae.</p>

<p>My two cents. I'm ecstatic that my degrees are from land-grant universities!</p>

<p>I certainly don't think schools like Washington & Lee, Vassar, Barnard, Hamilton, Oberlin, Brandeis, Grinnell are considered any more traditional academic powerhouses than schools like Bowdoin, Colgate, Colby, Davidson, Rice, Tufts, URochester that were on the list. This list doesn't change anything. I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to have one NY LAC and drew straws among Colgate, Hamilton and Vassar (doesn't exactly explain the inclusion of Skidmore), two of the three Maine LACs and one SE LAC and flipped a coin between Davidson and W&L.</p>

<p>Finally my school URochester is getting some national play. It so deserves it because it has a world class optics, economics, political science, psychology, brain and cognitive science, biomedical engineering, science/pre-med and computer science program. Don't forget that we have the EASTMAN SCHOOL OF MUSIC!</p>

<p>In the next 10 years, don't be surprised if Rochester breaks into the top 30 or top 25. If it wasn't for location and weather, eventhough we have tunnels, it would attract the top Students.</p>

<p>Bern, there is no shortage of differing versions of "truth" regarding the origin of the term "ivy league." What does seem to be clear is that the term was coined in the mid-1930s, and the athletic conference didn't officially take that title until 1954. If the term's coining and the official conference designation were roughly simultaneous, then you would have a better case. What I'm saying is that in the 20 years in between the mid-1930s and the mid-1950s, the term had a much more general application (that anyone over the age of 60 will attest to) than the 8 colleges currently in the athletic conference. The folks at Newsweek would seem to agree with the broader application of the term, as they lumped the 8 Ivy League schools in with Amherst, Williams, Stanford, MIT etc. as the traditional academic powerhouses, or "old ivies."</p>

<p>First off, I think the magazine assumes that Ivy League includes those 8 schools plus MIT, Stanford, Duke, and like Cal Tech or NU, since those schools are the ones that get the majority of the attention on this forum and in general when talking about top schools</p>

<p>The schools named are just schools a notch below those, which is nice I guess but gives the wrong impression as if they are academically equal I feel</p>

<p>Obviously, the interpretation of this article is that Skidmore is now a better school than Northwestern.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Bern, there is no shortage of differing versions of "truth" regarding the origin of the term "ivy league." What does seem to be clear is that the term was coined in the mid-1930s, and the athletic conference didn't officially take that title until 1954. If the term's coining and the official conference designation were roughly simultaneous, then you would have a better case. What I'm saying is that in the 20 years in between the mid-1930s and the mid-1950s, the term had a much more general application (that anyone over the age of 60 will attest to) than the 8 colleges currently in the athletic conference. The folks at Newsweek would seem to agree with the broader application of the term, as they lumped the 8 Ivy League schools in with Amherst, Williams, Stanford, MIT etc. as the traditional academic powerhouses, or "old ivies."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's all well and good - but its all a matter of semantics really. You can get into the nitty gritty of founding dates and origins all you want (not to mention that there is very little evidence to your claims that the term was used so loosely and broadly even 50-70 years ago). The fact of the matter is there is only ONE Ivy League and there are only EIGHT schools that comprise it. Period. You mention "coattail" riding within the Ivies in an earlier post, when ironically the reality is nearly every top tier school in one form or another attempts to define and or convey their own excellence by comparing and contrasting themselves with respect to the Ivies (or any given Ivy). It seems that if there is any coattail riding going on, it is happening everywhere outside (not within) the Ivies. This latest article "New Ivies" is just the latest iteration of this phenomenon.</p>

<p>Speaking to the "coattail effect," one of the first uses of "Ivy League" was recorded at a Columbia-Penn football game. Hardly HYP exclusive...</p>

<p>From <a href="http://www.ivysport.com/history%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ivysport.com/history&lt;/a> :</p>

<p>The time was Thursday afternoon, October 14, 1937. The setting was the sports department of the New York Herald-Tribune. Assignments were being made for coverage of the leading college football games of the week. The late George Daley, sports editor, and Irving Marsh, assistant sports editor, were making up the list.</p>

<p>To Stanley Woodward, even then a veteran and brilliant football writer, went the Pittsburgh-Fordham game at the Polo Grounds in New York. This was the game New Yorkers wanted most to read about, which was reason enough for Woodward to cover. He was then and is now one of the ablest writers the gridiron has produced in his years; and his years as a sports writer go back to about 1920.</p>

<p>When the other staff men got their assignments, Caswell Adams drew the Columbia-Pennsylvania game at Columbia's Baker Field in New York.</p>

<p>Now, Mr. Adams, who is in these days the erudite boxing expert of the New York Journal-American [Editor's note: Remember this was written in 1956], had no quarrel with either Columbia or Pennsylvania. Both, in his considered judgment, were and are splendid old institutions of higher learning. He was, however, able to restrain with relative ease his enthusiasm for football as played in that day by a number of teams representing the more venerable centers of higher education in the East. This was in the heyday of Fordham University as a major football power; and Mr. Adams is a Fordham man.</p>

<p>Briefly, Piquantly, without rancor, he expressed his views to the editor.</p>

<p>"Whyinell," he inquired, "do I have to watch the ivy grow every Saturday afternoon? How about letting me see some football away from the ivy-covered halls of learning for a change?"</p>

<p>He did not press the point. There was a Friday night boxing match coming up in Madison Square Garden, and he had an advance story to write. He forgot the matter.</p>

<p>But Stanley Woodward, at a nearby typewriter, did not forget. He had heard a new phrase. Ivy-covered? Ivy group? Ivy League?" These old schools of the East did not like leagues. They had long shunned the conference idea. Stanley likes to ruffle them occasionally and chuckled when he did so. Why not call these colleges the "Ivy League"?</p>

<p>Woodward wrote the weekly football review for the Herald-Tribune on Monday mornings. It was a review read with care by football men, including and especially football coaches. I recall one coach who was accustomed for several seasons to inquire of Stanley each week what game he was to cover. The coach would then forego scouting arrangements for that game. He knew Woodward's Sunday story and Monday morning technical analysis would tell him and his strategists all they needed to know about any rival.</p>

<p>So a few days later, though not on the Monday morning immediately following, there crept unobtrusively into a Woodward football essay the phrase "...and in the Ivy League..." as introduction to a discussion of what was happening on the fields of the East's oldest colleges which, even then and without a semblance of formal grouping, were natural and traditional rivals. Set down alphabetically, they were, of course, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Pennsylvania, Princeton, and Yale.</p>

<p>The phrase caught on. Other writers soon picked it up. Then football enthusiasts began to use it in conversation. Before long even some of the academicians began to adopt it. Few who used it knew, or even wondered, about its origin.</p>

<p>Now it has indeed come into the language. To opportunistic advertisers it is a phrase which carries the connotation of smartness in the wearing apparel of young Americans of college age. A national network radio show of some popularity made its own adaptation. To the high school senior choosing the school he hopes he attends there are two groups -- The Ivy and the others.</p>

<p>Educationally it has come to be actually a useful phrase, with scope reaching far beyond the confines and the campuses of the eight to which it was first so lightly and so aptly applied. It represents now in the public mind an educational philosophy that is old and established, but modern, too, and independent and unafraid. At first many believed it carried a connotation of smugness, conservatism, wealth. More and more are learning each year that this is not true.</p>

<p>When applied to athletics, Ivy League --- I guess the quotation marks can be dropped now --- implies a definite state of mind and set of principles, not at all the monopoly of the old Eastern colleges, but certainly the result in large part of their leadership. It is a state of mind in which intercollegiate sports competition is a completely integrated phase of the undergraduate liberal arts education; in which eligibility standards are reasoned, exacting, and honorably observed; in which the so called "athletic scholarship" is non-existent; in which academic officers assume full responsibility for sports administration.</p>

<p>All-American football players may be relatively few in the Ivy League in the future, but competition is rugged and exciting. It will be the competition of boys who play, not of downtown Boosters Clubs and recruiting organizations. It will be competition free of the troubles which still beset many of the younger but strangely more old-fashioned institutions in many parts of the country.</p>

<p>I saw Cas Adams not long ago at Baker Field, where Columbia College, the undergraduate college of 2,300 men in Columbia University; plays the only major football left in New York City.</p>

<p>I asked him if his contribution of an idea and, with Stanley Woodward, of a phrase to the American lexicon has brought him formal scholarly recognition from one or more of the institutions included in the now officially constituted Ivy League.</p>

<p>He said no.</p>

<p>The Ivy League was founded in 1954. This is good enough. Do we really need to go searching for moments where there were obscure references to “ivy-covered walls” and such???</p>

<p>::the interpretation of this article is that Skidmore is now a better school than Northwestern::</p>

<p>ummm ... how about, no?</p>