New article on MSN.com-"Is the Ivy League Worth It?"

College Search & Selection
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<p>There is an article out this morning by Don Asher questioning the relative worth of an Ivy education vs many other schools out there. His criticisms boil down to:</p>

<li> These schools are primarily graduate schools (I think he is overstating that as Princeton, Dartmouth and Brown definitely are more undergrad focused).<br></li>
</ol>

<p>“"The undergraduate at these schools is pretty much there to keep the streets paved. The money doesn’t go toward the undergraduate budget. A student will face large classes, and teaching assistants instead of professors.”</p>

<li> Rankings of specific departments don’t favor the Ivy League (I think he misses the overall quality of the school, but he may have a point about who is actually doing the teaching at these and the large research universities)</li>
<li> Grad schools don’t seem to favor Ivy League grads over others (I’m not so sure about this one either as the Ivies send an awful lot of students on to top graduate schools). </li>
</ol>

<p>“The top per capita producers of Ph.D.s in this country are in fact smaller colleges, most notably, the likes of Reed, Swarthmore, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, and Grinnell, Emory, Bates, Northwestern, and Morehouse”</p>

<li> The Ivy League scares some kids to death (This is a pretty weak argument IMO. The strength of the student body is the single biggest consideration in an undergraduate experience at any college)</li>
<li> Cutting edge tech employers may not be as enamored of the Ivy League brand (This is definitely true. There are many, many good schools around the country and employers know this, particularly in their own regions. Having said that, certain industries continue to favor the Ivies, most prominently the financial services industry.)<br></li>
</ol>

<p>My personal belief is that the Ivy education is great if for no other reason but that one is in an environment with some exceptionally talented peers. But more and more schools around the country can now claim similarly talented student bodies as there are more outstanding students than ever before matriculating to an ever widening universe of top schools. The gap between the lower Ivies and the rest of the world has definitely narrowed or been eliminated altogether.</p>

<p>Here is the link to the entire article:
<a href=“http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Departments/College/?article=IvyLeagueWorthIt&GT1=9984[/url]”>http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Departments/College/?article=IvyLeagueWorthIt&GT1=9984</a></p>

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<p>As always, articles like this are both right and wrong.</p>

<p>Does Harvard suck? Absolutely. </p>

<p>Is the Ivy League "worth it"? Obviously, it depends on what you want out of it. </p>

<p>If you want success the way our society defines it, it's absolutely worth it. If you want some of the world's best academic resources (which ISN'T the same as a great academic experience), it's definitely worth it. If you want tremendous opportunities, lots of knowledge about "how to compete in the American meritocracy", or "being in the presence of great minds", it's definitely worth it.</p>

<p>If you want to meet people who aren't huge nerds, or from the same socio-economic and political background with the same ideas, it's not worth it. If you want strong school spirit and sports, it's not worth it. If you want an education that doesn't conform to the Orwellian dictums of today's academia, laden with meaningless buzzwords like "ways of learning," it's not worth it. If you want academic guidance and a close-knit community, it's definitely not worth it. </p>

<p>Also, "Ivy League" doesn't mean anything (except elitism and crappy sports). I would choose many, MANY schools above Harvard, but I would choose Columbia in a heartbeat because of the location.</p>

<p>So as always, different things work for different people.</p>

3

<p>What makes one Ivy League school more "undergraduate focused" than another?</p>

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<p>I'm a recruiter for a major aerospace corporation. We have a list of 30 key schools from which we heavily recruit (we recruit at 88 in all). Of those 30, 10 are private and 20 are public. Of the 10 privates, only 2 are Ivies. If you attend any of those 30 key schools, you are at no advantage relative to a student at any of the others. In other words, attending any of the 20 key publics is "as good as" attending the top 2 Ivies...and "better" than attending the others.</p>

<p>I'm sure there are many on this board that will recoil in horror at this comment...but I am only reporting the truth.</p>

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<p>Aha I love this, guessing game ;)</p>

<p>2 ivies: Cornell, Princeton
Other 8 privates: MIT, Stanford, Caltech, CMU, USC, RPI, Duke, Wake Forest
20 Publics:
CA (3): Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD
MI (2): Michigan, MSU
TX(2): Austin, A&M
FL(2): FSU, UF (of course, we cannot afford to turn our blind eyes to locals, can we ?)
GA(2): GT, UG (ditto here)
UWashington
UIUC
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Purdue
Penn State
UMCP
VT
UNC</p>

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<p>rogracer, just because you recruit at certain schools - does that mean you only hire from those schools, are can students from other schools apply? Also, do you look for people with Masters degrees or PhD's too, or just undergrads?</p>

<p>I know that Blackstone only recruits from 8-9 schools but accepts applications and hires from almost 15-20 undergrads - though aerospace and financial services are a bit different lol</p>

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<p>rogracer: may I ask you a further question? As far as recruiting is concerned you have said "If you attend any of those 30 key schools, you are at no advantage relative to a student at any of the others." But suppose even further that someone bangs on your door from some other school, not on your key schools list, but with the right degree, all the right courses, and a good GPA. 1) How much of a disadvantage is that person facing, in terms of getting an interview? and 2) If you bring him in, how important will the barnd name on the diploma be if he/she interviews well/demonstrates competence and enthusiasm? 3) How much would an impressive internship asignment count, as opposed to being from a key school? Please be assured I have no bone to pick or hidden agendas, I am just curious about this.</p>

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<p>Wisconsin does not have aero engineering. I doubt they would be on the list.</p>

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<p>rogracer:</p>

<p>beside, perhaps, MIT, how many non-engineering NE schools does your Florida-based company target? (i.e., is it a geography issue?)</p>

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<p>Major aero company hires engineers from all disciplines, including ME EE Materials CS or CE etc etc. They also hire other scientists/math majors.</p>

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<p>wow what a badly thought out article. He has no idea what he's talking about.</p>

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<p>These days, anyone can get an amazing education anywhere - and will be surrounded by talented peers regardless. Honestly, most of the people I know who've applied to Ivy Leagues are only applying for the prestige. </p>

<p>Personally, the contact I've had with Ivy League schools hasn't really been positive. The man who interviewed me for Brown was - well, a snob to be frank; and at Columbia and Yale, the people there seemed obnoxiously pompous. I don't know about the other Ivies, but if that's the general attitude in Ivy League schools, then I would much prefer to not go there.</p>

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<p>


I'm curious -- which schools are those?</p>

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<p>weldon, many companies that hire new graduates to the entry level positions have a well established recruitment program. They identify the schools they will recruit from and set up interviews at those schools. The process usually starts early in the school year (September, October) and will take several months to complete. It is very very difficult for some one, unless you have connection, to get in if not from those colleges that the company recruits. This applies to new graduates only, not to experience hire.</p>

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<p>Wharton
HBS</p>

<hr>

<p>UT
UVA
Ross</p>

<p>Couple others, but mainly HBS and Wharton.</p>

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<p>HBS is a grad school.</p>

<p>The Ivies etc (HYPM, Stanford, Dartmouth, Duke, Columbia, Amherst, Williams) etc do better in terms of finance recruiting than all but a couple of the undergrad b-schools.</p>

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<p>kheryn,
Goodness knows I am not a huge partisan for the Ivies, but I think your criticisms reflect a misunderstanding of the people who are going there. Yes, there are some snobs there and yes, plenty of people apply to Ivies because of the prestige (does anyone really think that any of the Ivies not named HYP would be nearly as prestigious without their Ivy affiliation?). But the fact is that these schools do attract some of the highest quality applicants and students in the country. </p>

<p>In each region of the US, there are peer schools that can compete for these students and the number of these schools is increasing, but the number is still probably only about 15 private peer institutions. In addition, there are only about 5-6 state universities with a meaningful subset of students that would be statistically competitive with the Ivies. </p>

<p>From your comments, it sounds like you and the Ivies may not be a psychological fit. That's fine, move on and find one of those other schools that more closely fits your needs and personality. Among national universities, here are my suggestions on schools that you and others might want to consider outside of the Ivy League:</p>

<p>HYP comps would include Stanford, MIT, Caltech</p>

<p>Dartmouth, Columbia comps would include Duke, U Chicago, Wash U, Rice</p>

<p>U Penn, Brown, Cornell comps would broadly include Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, Emory, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, USC, Tufts, Wake Forest</p>

<p>In addition, there is a subset of students at some of the top state universities who I would include in this last group. Those state universities include UC Berkeley, U Virginia, U Michigan, UCLA, U North Carolina and W&M.</p>

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<p>Oh, I'm sorry for not making it clearer... I'm already going to Sarah Lawrence College. But you're right, it definitely isn't a psychological fit.</p>

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<p>leungpy1: what you're saying is definitely true for some companies, but not for others- mine, for instance. New employees are indeed identified from recruiting trips to certain nearby schools but also resumes from outside are a encouraged. As an example, over the last two years my own office hired 4 new graduates, 1 from a recruitment trip and 3 answering ads in newspapers and journals. And while we do recruit at certain "favored" schools, the name on the diploma of an outside candidate in general does not carry tremendous weight. So, I was curious about rogracer's outlook on this issue.</p>

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<p>Rabban – Our list is considered competition sensitive, so I can’t openly share it :( You’ve made some pretty good guesses, but you only got about 50% correct (including 1 of the two Ivies). BTW, even though I am located in Florida, there is no Florida bias in our recruitment (only 1 key school is in Florida) since we are an international corporation.</p>

<p>Barrons- Without saying too much, we do recruit at Wisconsin (but it is not a key school). </p>

<p>Thoughtprocess/Weldon – <em>Of course</em> we accept applications from schools outside of the “key 30” or “target 88”. Schools never trump the individual applicant, and I never meant to imply they did. Great talent can be harvested at plenty of schools outside the targeted 88. We would be at a competitive disadvantage if we did not realize that.</p>