<p>fencersmother, how did you manage to spend just $128 for homeschool per year? I’m just curious. Maybe one day, I’ll decide to homeschool my kids :)</p>
<p>Stupid ranking
My old highschool got around 750s on the list and my new high school ranked 29. To me my old high school is the worst high school one can ever enroll, and yet it made the list. This ranking is based on quantity, not quality, therefore, is not accurate</p>
<h1>34, woo!</h1>
<p>Haha, I don’t care, except when flaunting it to my friends in other (magnet and public) schools which are probably just as good. We’re just lucky that we have (comparatively) more funding because of the FCAT and the fact that we’re a magnet, but we STILL have to constantly cut classes from the curriculum because of budget cuts. They recently took out AP Art History (no one really took it though) and HL and SL Physics, which is my prospective major :x.</p>
<p>jonri:</p>
<p>The “attitude” comment was directed toward the private school mom who was so “put out” by the fact that her local schools made the list.</p>
<p>Your criticsm about Charter schools, etc being included on the list is valid and I agree with you. Charters and Magnets have control over their enrollment. The fact that they are on this list is something I disagree with, BUT I am still glad this list exists. </p>
<p>When Jay Mathews started the Challenge Index in 1998, only about 250 schools could’ve even qualified to be on it. A dozen years later, there are over 1600 schools that can meet the threshold that he has set up.</p>
<p>While charters and magnets pick and choose, the vast majority of the schools on the list are public schools with open enrollment. Those are the schools who have opened up their AP programs. Part of it is the incentive of the list and a larger part of it is the research has shown, over and over again how good AP courses are for kids.</p>
<p>The “E & E” rating is the percentage of seniors who PASSED an AP or IB test, not the percentage who took a test. The # that took the test is what makes up the Challenge Index. It’s right in the FAQs that go along with the list.</p>
<p>
Funny, because as a Boston Latin parent, I was wondering “why is it so low on the list”? (#141, where BLS usually ranks in the top 30 or 40 in the US News rankings). And of course the reason is that BLS has pretty strict rules about APs: (1) you can’t take any till junior year; (2) no more than 3 per year; (3) you may be excluded if your previous work in that subject hasn’t been strong enough. In short, BLS is more interested in making sure kids who take AP courses are prepared to do well in them than in making sure kids take as many as possible–a wise philosophy that’s guaranteed to hurt them in a foolish ranking system like this.</p>
<p>BTW, WISCBadger22, can you point us to this research that shows a positive correlation between taking AP courses and college performance–and is any of it <em>not</em> sponsored by the College Board?</p>
<p>My children’s school is in the top 100, and is the highest rated school in the San Francisco bay area on the list. I realize that people have problems with the rating system, and I agree that it’s hard to call this the definitive top 100 list. On the other hand, what they’re rating are public schools that offer AP courses, and how available that is for a wide range of students, not just top performing top tracked students. </p>
<p>In the larger school district our school is part of, only students who are top performing in 8th grade get tracked into the courses that will allow them to take APs in high school. While the schools have a large number of hispanic students, very few of them are ever allowed into AP or even college bound courses. As a result, the VAST majority of students graduated by the district have not been allowed to take courses that meet the requirements to attend public universities in the state. The schools know this. They know that they only have room for a small number of students in the courses needed for a college-eligible diploma (the A-G requirements). </p>
<p>In contrast, EVERY student in my children’s school takes the same course load. They ALL take the A-G courses. They ALL take AP courses. They ALL graduate prepared to attend college – with additional coursework and preparation in college skills – and almost every single one of them goes to a 4 year college. It’s not a magnet school; students are chosen by lottery and include student performing at far below basic levels on state tests when they enter the school. </p>
<p>The school’s system is in direct contrast to schools that only let top students into AP courses. If my daughter had attended the larger district school she was assigned to, she would not have been allowed to take AP courses, because she was pre-tracked into non-qualifying classes based on her 8th grade scores. </p>
<p>Plenty of charters do not “pick and choose”. My daughter’s school, its sister magnet – both take students by lottery. They have students from a wide range of abilities and English language learning status. The students come in from the same district elementary systems – but their test scores are the highest in the area and the school outperforms the district. Why? Because they believe that every student can achieve <em>and</em> they have systems in place to make that happen.</p>
<p>So, for perspective, our school ranked middle of the top 100, far higher than it has in the past. We have some excellent magnet programs and the strength of the programs are the AP courses and the performing arts programs. No one gets into the magnet based on scores, but on a point system that rewards coming from overcrowded, primarily URM schools. We also have about two-thirds of the school that is not magnet, Title 1, with kids who have trouble passing the high school exit exam, who have the kinds of educational and conduct issues you see in inner-city schools. Most of the time our school takes a huge beating for this in terms of our ranking, the pressure from the district to bring those scores up, to get those kids passing the exit exam, etc. We’ve been on program improvement status in the past even while our magnet kids were getting into top colleges, etc. Our magnet teachers and kids work really hard. Is this a stupid statistic? Yes. But as one teacher said (paraphrase), “It’s a stupid statistic I’ll quote wherever I go.” That’s because a school like ours can use a little recognition for the good things that are going on and we seldom get it from the outside. A lot of the mental energy of our administration and school community goes toward the lower-performing population of our school. It’s nice to see the AP kids get a moment in the sun and to be able to know that we’re doing something right too. I just wish that the pass rate was factored in, because it would mean more as we have an excellent pass rate.</p>
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</p>
<p>Do you really believe that parents who send their children to a private school are “hacked off” because a public school in their meighborhood made the list? </p>
<p>Do you really believe that parents who send their kids to private schools really care about comparing their school to the local public one? </p>
<p>Also, do you think that parents who send their children to a private school are happy when property values rise? Are they happy when their property taxes rise to fund the growing and insatiable spending appetite of the local high schools? </p>
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</p>
<p>Since you mentioned the word research in one your posts, may I ask how much research you have done on the issue of school charters? Are charters usually authorized to pick and choose their students through examination? </p>
<p>Or, perhaps, having “control over their enrollment” is supposed to relate to controlling the size of the school? Please do not hesitate to clarify your point, and perhaps offer a couple of examples how charter schools in your state do control their enrollment. Is this what you meant with “While charters and magnets pick and choose, the vast majority of the schools on the list are public schools with open enrollment.”</p>
<p>
In my experience, the answer is yes, and the reason is obvious. When you’ve made a sizable investment in preferring one thing over another, there’s a strong psychological need to establish the superiority of the preferred thing. This might not apply to the kind of families that have been sending their kids to the same private school for generations–they take the superiority of private schools for granted–but to families who see private schooling as a form of upward mobility, it does apply, as I’ve seen demonstrated in many conversations over the years.</p>
<p>
Actually I think you’ve hit on something. I think anybody who is upset at the “insatiable spending appetite” of their public school system should be able to opt out–but in return, when they sell their home they are legally barred from accepting more in return for it than it cost to build, whenever it was built. If you don’t want to accept the obligations of living in a civilized community, then you shouldn’t be entitled to the benefits thereof–including the accumulated market value of your home.</p>
<p>“Do you really believe that parents who send their kids to private schools really care about comparing their school to the local public one?”</p>
<p>Absolutely.</p>
<p>The first year NYS instituted high stakes testing for fourth graders (somewhere around 2002 I believe) a number of private schools in the area chose to participate. Imagine there surprise when for the most part their scores were no better than the public school scores. That was also the last year they took the tests.</p>
<p>Nightchef:</p>
<p>“College Outcomes Comparisons by AP and Non-AP High School Experiences” by Linda Hargrove, Donn Godin and Barbara Dodd. University of Texas. </p>
<p>(This was a a longitudinal study of over 300,000 students in the U of Texas system. They also compared “like” students, in terms of test scores, background, etc among AP vs. non-AP and college outcomes. The latest study was funded by CollegeBoard, but I have yet to hear anyone refute the data or the researchers’ long and credible backgrounds. The researchers involved, and others, have conducted several similiar studies over the years, which were self-funded. The UTexas system is unique in its’ data tracking go it has become the “go to” place for major AP studies over the years.)</p>
<p>Imagine THEIR surprise. I swear I really am a good speller!</p>
<p>xiggi:</p>
<p>The key word regarding what I said about private school parents getting ‘hacked off’ about the Newsweek list was “SOME”. Some people espouse the views I mentioned and it certainly isn’t an endictment of an entire group, only an indictment of a minority viewpoint within that group. This viewpoint was presented by the poster “Fogfog” on page 1 of this thread. His/her viewpoint on this topic was elitist, destructive and fueled by basic ignorance of the list: its’ origin, methodology and purpose. </p>
<p>As far as the “growing and insatiable appetite of the local high schools”, that you speak of; that’s a completely different topic, probably not meant for the message boards of College Confidential. As opposed to my statement, however, yours IS a blanket statement that appears to indict all 27,500+ public high schools in the U.S. </p>
<p>As far as Charters and controlled enrollment is concerned, most successful charters admit students by lottery. By the very definition of a lottery system of admission, only the most motivated families apply for a slot. That certainly skews the type of students going into those schools and creates a ‘brain drain’ at the school those kids would’ve gone to (usually in urban neighborhoods). </p>
<p>Additionally, as a whole, ELL students and students with special needs are under-represented at charter schools. (Jame Vaznis, “Charter Schools Lag in Serving the Neediest,” Boston Globe, August 12, 2009). </p>
<p>Charter schools have been studied and will continue to be studied for and they play an important part in our educational landscape. For the sake of time and my sanity, I don’t wish to go through the litany of studies, reports and stories on the subject charters and/or their enrollment, but the book “The Death and Life of the Great American School System” by Diane Ravitch has a few excellent chapters on the subject with about 30 pages of footnotes if you’d like.</p>
<p>Until charters, en masse, accept the most difficult students in direct proportion to their existence in the overall student populace and until they cannot and do not “counsel out” many of the most difficult students their own schools, I can’t drink that Kool Aid. Many of these schools are great, but we cannot pretend they are doing something that they are not. Unfortunately, as much as we Americans would like to believe there is a “quick fix” answer to these large questions, there aren’t.</p>
<p>*Additionally, as a whole, ELL students and students with special needs are under-represented at charter schools. (Jame Vaznis, “Charter Schools Lag in Serving the Neediest,” Boston Globe, August 12, 2009). *</p>
<p>I would agree- - but- in our district ( no charters), schools can choose how many students with IEPs to admit & even those that do admit, have variable success/interest in those students.
Some IMO, want the students for the “extra” funding they bring with them, being as it goes into the whole school budgets.</p>
<p>Newsweek, I guess, is trying to be next USNWR.</p>
<p>^^^ It isn’t even a good Newsweek any more.</p>
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</p>
<p>Oh, have no worries about the type of discussions we have (and have had) on such issues on CC. You should also not hesitate to bring up valid research, especially in the form of links. </p>
<p>As far as my “blanket” indictment for the insatiable appetite for funding, I’d love for it not to be a blanket indictment. For this to happen, should not be able to find one school district that has voluntarily returned funds to taxpayers with a note that says, “Thanks. We have enough for this year.” Well, we can all have dreams. </p>
<p>As far as the brain drain that comes from having competition, I suggest you’d check the research of Hoxby on the benefits of competition. Since you seem to be interested in analyzing the need for the real and long term solutions to the current disastrous system of education, I would not mind sending you in a slightly different type of research. </p>
<p>For full disclosure, it would not take long for you to figure out than I enjoy Milton Friedman more than Shanker and that I do not think highly of the NEA and AFT. Fwiw, neither am I a great fan of the charter schools, which I consider a delaying tactic and an abject compromise to the real solution. All schools should be publicly funded, but not all should be managed by the government. An example of how that works is in Belgium.</p>
<p>xiggi:</p>
<p>With all due respect, I’m not on here to discuss politics. And also with all due respect, the large suburban district that I work for in the northern ‘burbs of Chicago, lowered its’ property tax rates two years ago. With 27,500+ examples of high schools in the country, there are going to be 27,500 different financial situations. Our district is lucky to be in a good financial position. </p>
<p>You set up a false premise, however, for your blanket indictement. Just because you’ve never heard of a district saying “thanks, we have enough this year”, it does happen, but districts don’t mail a check home to each resident. In fortunately affluent areas like Chicago’s north shore 'burbs, many disticts have reserve funds that have allowed them to weather the current financial crisis. (Most municipalities have their own laws regarding how much can be but in reserve funds to avoid the premise of which you speak. i.e. They keep taking in money they don’t need.) </p>
<p>Can many tax-supported institutions manage money better? Certainly. But there are as many situations as there are districts and many in my area are managed very, very well. I know that’s not the case in many places, though. However, just because you’ve never heard of any district saying “thanks, we have enough”, doesn’t really mean anything. Your statement appears to be based on idealogy more than anything. I’ve never heard of a library, police or fire department, the military, NASA, etc giving money back either. That doesn’t really prove much.</p>
<p>I’m quite familiar with Huxby and don’t disagree with the idea that competition creates benefits. What I disagree with is that competition is THE answer. The magic bullet. Again, I agree with Huxby’s basic premise, in theory. I also know that Princeton researchers used her data and could not replicate her findings. </p>
<p>The most exhautive review yet on those issues was conducted in 2009 by Cecilia Rouse of Princeton and Lisa Barrow of the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. They reviewed all existing studies of vouchers in Milwaukee, Clevland and D.C. They found that there were “relatively small achievement gains for students offered vouchers, most of which are not statistically different from zero.” They also found that there was no perusasive evidence that the public school systems that lost voucher students to private schools had improved. I live in Wisconsin and that was one of the ideas that was one of the things we were “promised” would happen. We’ve lived through it. The results have been mixed, at best, and we’ve had a program for 20 years. </p>
<p>My kids will go to our local school, even though I have the choice for them to go anywhere I am willing to drive them, provided they have the room. Now, I’m lucky because our local schools are excellent. But I don’t want my local school competing for me to send my kids there anymore than I want my local police or fire department competing to protect my family or put a fire out at my house. I agree with your supposition that education is a public good, I just think that as a public good, there is value in it being vested in your community (i.e. your schools). </p>
<p>Friedman’s ideas that schools should operate like a business and compete for “customers” has done much more harm than good in my opinion because many politicians, who don’t undertstand how schools operate, have bought into them. Schools, just like police and fire departments are not businesses and should not be treated as such. We’ve gone throught far too many disasters in our country to continue to myopically believe that “the market is always right”. Personally, I welcome the competition in education, but it certainly isn’t a cure all, as it is often “marketed” to be.</p>
<p>While I respect the people of Belgium, I don’t think it would be wise for us to attempt to replicate a system in a country so different from ours. Belguim is a Constitutional Monarchy of 10 million people, and a largely homogeneous society. We are a diverse nation of 308 milliion people and are the only industrialized nation in the world sharing a 2,000 mile border with a developing country. That creates challenges that are unique to us.</p>
<p>I don’t share the dim view that our current system is “disatrous”. With all the hand-wringing that goes on, we have the finest and most diverse system of colleges and universities in the world and they are populated by our students each and every year. The top 1/3 of American students can compete with anyone in the world and the middle 1/3 hold their own. It’s the bottom 1/3 of students where the actual “disaster” lies (I will agree that there is a disaster there). </p>
<p>However, over 20% of all high school dropouts come from just 25 school districts. If we can ‘fix’ just those 25 large, urban districts it will literally change our nation.</p>
<p>Of course, the problem with the idea that competition is the cure for what ails our schools is this: in the business world that the schools should allegedly be emulating, the whole point of competition is that some of the competing organizations will fail and be absorbed or replaced by others. Failure is built into the system, necessary to it. Most of us do not want our schools to be run that way. We don’t want any students to fail, and we certainly don’t want any entire schools to fail. When schools do fail, we rightly see it as a disaster, not as simply an inevitable part of a competitive process.</p>
<p>Bottom line: as WISCBadger 22 said, public education is NOT a business, and neither can nor should be run like one.</p>