<p>Private colleges have been at the $40-50K mark for some time now. There has always been a "spread" between the top public and private universities, but that is because public universities receive state funding, not (necessarily) because private universities are wasting money. There is not as much fat as you imagine in university budgets. A good, comprehensive undergraduate education does not come cheap. Only universities with endowments in the stratosphere are in the position to offer significant tuition discounting to upper-middle class families. Notre Dame is not there yet.</p>
<p>"Make professors teach 3 courses a semester or get rid of "research" faculty."</p>
<p>OK.....</p>
<p>We were faced with similar choices about a year ago. ND did surprise us with the amount of aid through a university scholarship, but even doing all we could, substantial debt would have been incurred, and this was a deal breaker. I see some young folks on this thread with what I think is a very cavalier attitude about such debt and the effects it can have. I urge anyone to carefully research the realities of substantial student loan debt before incurring it. At least go in with your eyes wide open.</p>
<p>OP, consider the uncertainties that your career faces, also. As we were deciding between ND and our flagship state U, my company was acquired by another. After months of waiting, I was laid off in December after 9 years with the company. I am very fortunate to have quickly found a new job, albeit at a pay cut of 30%. So, we are very glad that we opted for the state U and no debt. I know ND is special, particularly in spiritual/social development, school spirit, and the alumni network. But as special as anything may be, that does not mean it is worth any price. Only a very few things in life are truly that precious, and a college education, while valuable, doesn't qualify, at least in my opinion. But as always, it is a very personal choice, and I condemn no one who has chosen to spend the money to go to ND, wishing them all the best. But sit down with your son, consider the hard realities of life as you know them being an adult, and make the choice which is best for you, not based on what anyone else thinks. Your son will suceed and be hapy whereever he goes, as long as he makes the effort, which he will.</p>
<p>Merkur, that is a very good post. ND, and other elite private schools, made the assumption that during the good econmic times, that they could always increase the tuition and parents and kids could then just keep borrowing. Cheap credit made this possible, but also, ND's focus on becoming a reaearch university and like other "top" schools, trying to keep the USNWR ranking up with deluxe dining halls, AC in the dorms, deluxe fitness center tc.... skyrocketed the costs.</p>
<p>But what ND, and these other schools need to do, is just like what is happening at my company and my wife's, have 10% lay-offs, freeze travel, stop 401K matches, freeze the pension. What bugs me is that these universities are NOT making a true sacrifice yet. So ND is going to let in less academic qualified students that have rich parents that can pay the full bill.</p>
<p>ND sold it's soul for prestige and rankings.</p>
<p>umm, I don't think ND (or any school) is going to intentionally lower its academic standards by any significant amount just to help out the kids with wealthy parents. That doesn't make any sense. Sure, there may be a smaller number of students from lower incomes, but that doesn't mean ND has let in stupider kids just because they can pay the bill. That's a pretty ignorant assumption because none of us here know the decisions that are being made right now by the leadership of the school and we are in no position to judge the cuts they are making. We also don't know that these "elite private schools" intentionally burdened their students with debt because of the good economy. I can't think of any rational person who would consciously make a decision like that because of its illogicality. Why would any school want to make students that come out of school with heavy debt? ND has often stressed the fact that less than 1/2 of 1% of its graduates struggle to pay off their loans, which means that most students probably didn't have to "just keep borrowing" to be able to keep up with the tuition rates. I understand that you don't want your son to graduate with a lot of debt, but seeing how you don't yet know what financial aid ND will offer you I would suggest waiting to find out before you start criticizing ND for what you interpret as "selling its soul". Plus, this really should be your son's decision in the end, and cost, while it is definitely an important factor, should never trump your son's happiness or peace of mind. You've only got one life to live, after all, so why live with any regrets?</p>
<p>I imagine, MiPerson, that the other schools you and/or your student have interest in (Duke and Yale) are doing the exact opposite? There are a few of us who have very qualified students that are indeed paying full price. We think it is worth it and by the way--we have sacrificed dearly for it! I suggest that you visit the other college forums where you have interest and express concern over their costs as well. See what kind of reactions you obtain. </p>
<p>May I also suggest that you read my previous post regarding how you might be able to afford a ND education for your student!</p>
<p>Oh and by the way, my student does not have A/C in the dorm. Sure would be nice, I suppose, but considering the snow on the ground right now and frigid temps in SB, I am thankful the heat works even if the thermostat does not! And since the dorm is not the Ritz-Carlton, I am happy to know that the dining hall maybe in some small way makes up for the accommodations.</p>
<p>Domestic students admissions process is need blind (not international, true)... so what what you said is blatantly incorrect.</p>
<p>Students who have the credentials to be admitted to Notre Dame have lots of options. Many of them could qualify for sizable tuition discounts at very good schools that are not as highly ranked as ND. State universities have lower tuitions and will often offer substantial scholarships to competitive candidates, even from out of state. There are ROTC scholarships and the national service academies for the many talented student/athletes who are attracted to ND. It's hard to understand how Notre Dame is "selling its soul" by declining to further subsidize (because even full tuition does not cover all costs) the education for admitted students who cannot demonstrate financial need but whose families are unwilling to assume the financial burden of a private education.</p>
<p>so I guess we can continue this discussion but let's put this on hold, the answer here is when we find out what ND's yield rate is for the class of 2013. I believe it is about 56% right now.</p>
<p>The Director of Admissions at ND admitted they accpeted more kids this year under EA and he said the economy has created a lot of uncertainity on the percentage of kids that will decide to attend ND.</p>
<p>So if the yield rate goes down, and academics go down (which ND could prevent just admit more rich, nerdy kids that are not well rounded nor leaders), then ND is charging too much.</p>
<p>But at some point, ND's business model is going to fail, you just can't keep increasing the costs by 3-4% year at a baseline of cost of $50K/yr ths year.</p>
<p>ND was $5800/yr in 1978-79, with rate of inflation of (CPI), it should be $17,800/yr this year, so being generous and allowing this to be double, let's say the cost could be $35K/yr....but now it is approaching $50K/yr....this is not sustainable.</p>
<p>"so I guess we can continue this discussion but let's put this on hold, the answer here is when we find out what ND's yield rate is for the class of 2013. I believe it is about 56% right now.</p>
<p>The Director of Admissions at ND admitted they accpeted more kids this year under EA and he said the economy has created a lot of uncertainity on the percentage of kids that will decide to attend ND.</p>
<p>So if the yield rate goes down, and academics go down (which ND could prevent just admit more rich, nerdy kids that are not well rounded nor leaders), then ND is charging too much."</p>
<p>This isn't necissarily true as ND does award good financial aid packages to people who show need. So, just because the economy is bad doesn't mean that every other lower-middle-class and low-income person will decided not to go on the basis of cash.</p>
<p>"But at some point, ND's business model is going to fail, you just can't keep increasing the costs by 3-4% year at a baseline of cost of $50K/yr ths year."
Just like every other university?</p>
<p>"ND was $5800/yr in 1978-79, with rate of inflation of (CPI), it should be $17,800/yr this year, so being generous and allowing this to be double, let's say the cost could be $35K/yr....but now it is approaching $50K/yr....this is not sustainable."
Yes, but in 1978 a college degree wasn't totally necissary to advance further than a low-wage job. The cost of college hasn't only risen with inflation, but risen with the way people value it today (that is, if you don't have a 4 year degree today, many people will be flipping burgers to their graves).</p>
<p>The class of 2012 had an average SAT score of over 1400. There is plenty of room to work with that applicant pool without endangering Notre Dame's academic reputation. A few percentage points in the yield rate wouldn't do much to the numbers. Notre Dame has always lost top students to the Ivy Leagues and to the honors programs at state universities. Conversely, there have always been families willing to make substantial financial sacrifices to send their students to Notre Dame, and Notre Dame's strong legacy tradition probably puts it in a better position than most comparable schools to withstand the present economic uncertainties.</p>
<p>clairemarie, you mendioned that ND alumni are willing to make a sacrifice to send there kids to NS. Yes, we (an alumni-me) are willing to make a sacrifice for our son but not when the cost is $50K/yr and the good public ivy state school is $22k/yr. A nice gift to our son will be NO DEBT if he goes to the state school. Also, I know other alumni who are balking at sending their accpeted kid to ND becasue of the costs. The yield will go down substantially this year and I bet ND announce some new plan next year on their costs.</p>
<p>And hopefully your son will recognize the value of graduating debt-free. Our own student has several friends that are in our local State school honors program as pre-meds. Their parents offered debt-free after med school if a compromise was made on undergrad, but they could not afford both. These are kids who turned down Duke, Penn and others so that they can graduate med school debt-free. I hope that you can come to terms with the issue of cost at colleges and unis. It is indeed a personal decision that every family must look at and consider carefully.</p>
<p>MiPerson, I think that you underestimate the number of families who are able and willing to meet the costs of a ND education. Even in a recessionary economy, the vast majority of professionals are still working, and many (cardiologists, tax attorneys, consultants, defense contractors, bankruptcy specialists, radiologists, IT managers, etc.) earn an income sufficient to pay the ND tuition out of current income. Others have saved since their children were born in appropriate investment vehicles (with college funds pulled out of stocks long before 2008) and can manage with moderate debt. I would be surprised if there were a significant reduction in ND's yield this academic year -- I think that the real consequences of the market meltdown and other economic shocks will come a few years down the line, as parents of middle school children realize that their 529s will not recover their value by the time their children are ready for college.<br>
And whatever cost-cutting measures that ND adopts, its tuition will never be competitive with the public Ivies.</p>