Agree. I would like to add that most folks are not in the running for the most selective colleges (HYPSM , Chicago) - especially because they are not near the ceiling of the academic criteria you mention.
But people with better stats than his were declined. The only differentiator between them was EC’s. Thus, my conclusion.
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Not true at UCB and UCLA even pre-pandemic. The smartest student in my kids class in 2018 (instate), NMF, 4.0UW, ~10 APs with 5s, school prize for best student in MVC, was rejected by both UCB and UCLA (for CS), ended up at UCSD, because she had no ECs whatsoever (I’m sure she was perfectly capable of writing decent essays).
Zero ECs is different. I did say the following:
But you implied that “large public universities” like the UCs were somehow different, because ECs were “just one” of the 13 factors. When it comes to UCB and UCLA that wasn’t true even before the pandemic and the move to test blind.
As author Jeff Selingo said in his book where he was given access inside the college admissions offices when evaluating the applications - applications are never compared side by side. They are always read one application at a time and a score is given depending on what speaks to the evaluator at the time of the evaluation. It is possible one evaluator may have declined a person with better stats and better ECs than an application evaluated by a different evaluator with worse stats and worse ECs. It is not even repeatable score - it is possible the same evaluator may give a significantly different score at different times of the day for the nearly identical applications. He gives many such examples in his book of applications from the same school being treated differently and also where a better application gets rejected. So there is no precise thing as a differentiator.
Also the evaluators are quite overworked and underpaid people - it is hard to expect them to be perfectly repeatable or predictable. BTW in the book, Selingo takes us into admissions offices of 3 types of universities - selective private (large admissions staff), large public school (similar to a UC - small staff with large number of applications) and a small liberal arts college. Each has different level of attention to the application - stats are more important in the public university, a little more holistic in the selective private university and entirely different in the liberal arts college (risk averse and making sure the admitted student joins - more ED, etc.).
See my last reply to ettyfromme. Also I meant to say: “Zero ECs is different.” - earlier I had just used the words “No ECs is different” based on your phrase “she had no ECs”.
I can see your point in a normal year. Not this year or in the catch up years to come. We worked with a college counselor who had done admissions at top schools and frankly neither her or Mr. Selingo have insight into the fresh hell of COVID admissions. All bets are off this year. My kid applied to Ivy League schools behind the counselors back because they were told they’d have no chance. Will be interesting to see if she was right. He may be thrown into the trash heap because of test scores or grades not good enough, but if he gets in, it will definitely be the story his ECs tell.
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This is a very interesting thread. My older child’s dearth of EC’s has concerned me, but at a certain point you just can’t make them do things that don’t interest them. He has participated in athletics at his HS all 3 years (a combination of soccer, x-country and indoor track) but isn’t a great athlete. Other than that, he has been doing volunteer work for several weeks each summer through his church since 7th grade and when covid ended that program he and some friends got together and found volunteer work themselves last summer so he does that. Otherwise, he did teach himself to play the piano during covid and does sport writing on the side but that is it. No school clubs. Hope it will suffice (fyi, he won’t be targeting top schools - has a 3.65 UW and 4.2 W average so a very solid, but not top student).
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The one part about ECs that does not always get mentioned is its correlation to success in college. There have been numerous studies done that has directly linked a students success in college to their involvement in other aspects of college life (clubs, athletics, etc). When admissions officers are looking at ECs I really don’t think they are on the hunt for the “Oboe Player” to fill out the pep band. They are looking for students that are going to be active members of the college community. One way to do this is to show through your ECs how you contribute to your own community (School, town, church, universe…) but another way could be through your essay. If you can articulate your passion and how you will be able to develop your passion if you are a student you’ll be better off than trying to pepper your application with a dozen random clubs.
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Completely agree.
Agree on this. Having a passion and pursuing it is good and important - and articulating it well will help the overall application. My points are more for the parents who obsess over adding a lot of ECs just for college applications sake. It is important for the kid to be either a well rounded person or a specialist in something - but for overall life not just for getting into a good college. And a specialist can be extremely academic as well - with no ECs but other extraordinary academic achievements that go beyond GPA & test scores.
I wouldn’t think of it in terms of “what is best for college admissions” but “what is best for your life”/“what type of life you want to lead”. Because you could sit on your ass, but (at least if I’m the parent), I’m not supporting you financially forever. You have to support yourself, you’re going to be on this earth for decades (and yet no one’s time on this earth is infinite so think also of how you’d want to be remembered ), so why not discover you’re interested in and get good at the craft of living? Challenge by asking what plans she has for that.
And @collegemom3717 had an important insight. Self-confidence may need to be developed, but self-confidence is like a skill (like writing, math, etc.) and like most things in life, you get out what you put in.
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I, too, have a D24, who is about equally as apathetic about extracurriculars. Just yesterday evening, we attended an online presentation that our school counselor did all about “What should 9/10 grade families be doing now in preparation for college?” And one of those is ECs.
Last summer (between grades 8 and 9), D24 basically sat on the couch and watched TV with a mix of video games thrown in. She became part of the furniture. We told her that was her last ‘summer off’ and this year, she has to do SOMETHING. Anything of her choosing, but it has to be something.
One slight challenge we have is D24 doesn’t turn 15 until the school year is over. But the school counselor highlighted that you shouldn’t let age get in the way…you can come up with your own summer project ‘thing’ to do if you want instead of doing something more ‘traditional.’
The school counselor also is getting all of the kids set up with Naviance logins this week and told all the 9th graders to start taking the assessments in there so they can get some ideas of possible majors, professions, etc…which, in turn, might give somebody an idea of which area they might want to focus an EC or 2 on.
The only thing D24 has consistently been involved in is choir. Her school doesn’t offer choir as an elective or an after school thing, so she participates in a local children’s choir instead which is not affiliated with any of the local schools. She loves that. It’s one evening a week for an hour and a half, along with 3-4 concerts during the school year. No choir during the summer.
What D24 doesn’t know is we’re going to give her The Talk again this weekend to tell her/remind her/voluntold her that she will need to pick SOMETHING to do this summer. Read a new novel each week. Do a woodworking project with your dad (DH has discovered it recently as a new hobby). Build a robot (she wants to join the Robotics club next year) over the summer with your soon-to-be-8th grade little sister…SOMETHING.
In the pre-COVID days, D24 was in the Anime club at school. But that basically involves watching Japanese anime once a week after school for an hour with the other Anime fans at school & the art teacher.
The school counselor said that it’s ok and normal for HS kids to have no idea what they want to do/study in college/what they want to be when they grow up, but ECs are an additional way to try on some different hats in order to figure out what you’re interested in.
We do NOT have any top 25 or whatever schools on our radar for D24. So we are not looking for her to do something insane like find a cure for cancer all on her own or anything like that. But, like the school counselor said, when you’re in the fall of senior year and you have to list your activities/ECs on the Common App, you can’t exactly say that you watched Netflix and played video games for 4 years. 
My 9th grader is planning to volunteer at our local science museum and as an office intern with a Down syndrome foundation. Maybe she could volunteer with a cause she cares about?
I really don’t like the idea of a school counselor suggesting EC’s to “get in.” I am glad the counselor mentioned other motivations, like trying on different hats in terms of interests to develop. Authenticity is more important than a stuffed resume.
The choir sounds like a great activity outside of school. COVID is clearly a factor here. The anime club could turn into something else. The robotics can wait until she gets going with the club.
I think your daughter sounds fine. (One of mine didn’t discover her main interest until late high school and just got a doctorate.) If and when she wants to pursue something, a parent can facilitate. If you know her interests, you can also provide ideas, again, as a facilitator. But I have a feeling that if COVID subsides, she will do fine.
My S22 and a friend decided recently to start an architecture club at school. So they’re creating themselves a couple of leadership positions and some demonstrated interest. They’re going through the formal process, with an adviser (the teacher who taught S22’s Engineering by Design elective last year) and a proposal. I think it’ll be helpful in applying to architecture programs, as it isn’t just a random activity. It was something I’d been thinking he should do, so I’m glad he came up with the idea on his own.
Depends what the club does though, since they’re not architects: discuss styles and periods? give architecture tours in your community?
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They have a few primary aims. Through a silent-auction fundraiser win, we just took a group hardhat tour of their school’s big expansion project, guided by the project architects. We brought S22’s friend with us, and the two of them asked good questions and conversed with the architects. So through the club, they want to organize another tour before the project is complete, so club members can see and learn about behind-the-scenes details.
Part of the project is creating a new, expanded home for the school’s restaurant, part of its culinary-education elective program. The restaurant has traditionally been restricted to school staff members as patrons, served by the students in the program. The architecture club wants to organize an effort to let students eat at the restaurant as well — exploring architecture’s real-world impact on uses of space.
Finally, the club intends to help its members explore options for architecture studies in college. They’ll discuss the difference between the five-year B.Arch route and the six-year+ BA/BS/M.Arch path, the challenges and requirements of each, and schools to which they might want to apply. And they’ll review one another’s portfolios, if they have them (S22 and his friend will develop portfolios through a summer academy at an architectural college).
All in all, I think it’s a pretty solid plan.
That sounds fantastic, and best of all, driven by your son’s interests and initiative.
Unsurprisingly, my D24 (the subject of the initial post on this thread) has not morphed into any sort of highly-involved kid just yet, LOL. She has joined a gym with her friends and been going regularly and also gotten a job. I neglected to mention originally that she does volunteer (just a few hours a month) with a service organization. I’m somewhat hopeful that at some point over the next couple of years, maybe something offered through school will pique her interest. If not, so be it.
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