No overnights for PPW

<p>If there is one thing I have discovered and learned about USNA especially from reading books on the History of the Academy - is that there is this constant "ying and yang" between the things that are allowed/not allowed....between standards held one way and then another. Between what many feel are petty differences and others feel are hills to die on. It's simply the way this place has always been run.</p>

<p>Wanna really know what other Plebe experiences were like? Talk to people like my husband, class of 72 and the USNA 69 on this forum. They had 2nd Class running their Plebe summers and it was NOT fun. Ohhh, an what would be litigation in today's society as brutal hazing was the norm. Along with demerits for breathing. ( I was informed by my Plebe that she wasn't the ONLY one who got no demerits in her entire Plebe year. Even my husband raised his eyebrows at that....this isn't a comment on HER 'perfection' nearly as much as it is a comment on how USNA has changed in it's measure of performance and how they try to mold leadership skills)</p>

<p>Speaking of molding leadership skills into young people who for the most part come as civilians and in 6 weeks emerge as model marchers, uniform wearers, room floor polishers and hoarse rate screamers.....my vote on this is to trust the process and the decision making through this see-saw of change of directions/Commendants/Supes, etc. and know each and every Class of the Brigade is going to come out ready to serve this great and awesome country, thanks to the hard work of everyone there at USNA.</p>

<p>GO NAVY
BEAT ARMY</p>

<p>First, I think everyone has posted really good info so far.</p>

<p>Second, the hardest part of changing is accepting that what worked (and was experienced) in the past is no longer what is going to be the future. For example, when VADM Rempt and CAPT Grooms were leading the administration, the duty sections were changed from 9-10 to 3 for the class of 2008 (essentially it went from standing duty every 9-10 days to 3 days). The class of 2008 had been accustomed to the 9-10 section rotation for all of plebe year and were suprised to see the changes at the beginning of 3/c year. For a while there was a lot of bickering....but when a lot of people just started to understand that the ship was turning to a new course, the new rotations became accepted. Another example was when the class of 2008 expected "normal" weekend liberty (Fri PM until Sun PM) but was changed to noon Sat until Sun PM. Again for a while, there was a lot of bickering....but eventually everyone settled down and the Dant allowed for CC's to approve up to 2 extended weekend liberty "passes" per semester, for good performance.</p>

<p>Third, I think it is okay to vent your fustration (and even talk about it with others) in an appropriate setting for a certain period of time (definitely not in front of subordinates!!!) in order to get the stress out. I highly doubt that someone would be happy with a major change that affects them in a negative way and it is a normal human response to initially be "upset".</p>

<p>Fourth, after this time, just accept that there will be change AND that YOU might be the person that has to enforce it. </p>

<p>So after reading these posts, I understand that there are some upset parents because the precdent set in the past is (maybe?) won't be the one in the future...but the best thing to do is just accept the change and understand it is probably for the good (as many people have mentioned). I have dealt with A LOT of changes at USNA, and sometimes they aren't easy to grasp...but as a future officer, I can't turn my back on a CO (assuming that what the CO is doing is legal/ethical), so the time to grasp difficult change is NOW!</p>

<p>FYI, the PPW "weekend" started with '08 when the water main broke. The purpose wasn't to give out a free weekend, it was just that there was a logistic/operations problem. The administration at the time decided that the weekend (by accident) was a success and kept it going until now.</p>

<p>USNA69: You don't care one bit whether or not I look foolish, so let's not kid each other.</p>

<p>You could advance the discussion a great deal more if you would make a comment about the subject rather than, in typical CC fashion when the poster has nothing better to say, attack the original poster. </p>

<p>For example, you could have, in your original post asked whether or not it had been considered that the administraiton had a purpose behind the change. [As you did later on] Instead of coming out to attack me and the mid I paraphrased as being, essentially, silly.</p>

<p>Of course, that seems to be your M.O.: make fun of the poster rather than address the substance of what is being said. For example, rarely answering the question that is posed to you because, well, because I am guessing [yes assuming] that you either don't like the question, don't have an answer, or believe it to be below your dignity.</p>

<p>For example, USNA1985 and Jadler [is this a generational thing] makes perfect sense when suggesting that it is the CO's call, regardless of what mids or parents want or th ink. I agree completely. It is his call. [Well, probably the 'dant's call w/ approval by the Supt.]</p>

<p>That doesn't mean I can't think its petty. I still do. That also doesnt' mean that I don't respect chain of command, shrug my shoulers and follow the order 100% were I subject to it.</p>

<p>As a second-year beneficiary [2009], it was a nice plus that did not seem to damage operational readiness [so to speak]. The upside in morale seemed to outweigh any downside in training.</p>

<p>And I don't think anybody "assumed" it was the end of the Academy as we know it. That is just an overblown characterization of the original comment. [But, once again, that seems to be a typical response on the part of some here on CC.] By its substance, that is, by characterizing the decision as petty, I am suggesting the exact opposite. </p>

<p>It is a small-minded decision that does not appear to further either the Academy's mission or the training of plebes. That doesn't mean parents are in a rage over the decision [compared, for example, to USMMA parents who are getting wound up over their institution having no Chaplain]; that the Plebe system will fall apart; or that any catastrophic result will be forthcoming.</p>

<p>I only wish you could post constructively without attacking others.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Nice try Bill, but I think you started it: </p>

<p>


</p>

<p>This is constructive posting, making wild suppositions about what other people think?</p>

<p>I'll just be grateful that I have the chance to hug him and spend some time with him. </p>

<p>So I don't get an overnight. I'd love one, but I know we'll have them in November and December.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It is a small-minded decision that does not appear to further either the Academy's mission or the training of plebes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Bill, with all due respect, I believe this characterization is unfair. I don't personally know the Dant or the Supe, but they are both senior, highly decorated officers who are also USNA grads in the "modern" era. To suggest that their decision is "small-minded" borders on petty. Also, I do believe that they are in a better position to determine what is best for the mission of USNA or plebe training than you are or, in all fairness, I am. I certainly hope so, given that Congress has tasked them with that responsibility.</p>

<p>I don't agree with everything that is or has been done at USNA. However, I'm sure that, when I was going through as a mid, those from earlier classes had issues with our regimens. And, I'm sure that, sometime around 2032 or 2050, the class of 2011 will take issue with certain elements of the plebe training requirements for those classes. </p>

<p>If you're a parent of 2011 (I apologize that I haven't memorized the details of this thread), I'm sure the lack of overnight for PPW is disappointing. But, there will be so many truly great moments in the next 4 years that this one will be forgotten in an instant. All parents of 2011 should keep focus on the big picture -- their son/daughter making it through plebe summer, ac year, and the next four years. All else pales in comparison.</p>

<p>The class of 2008 were the first to get an overnight only because of a water main break at the academy. With changing CO's, whether it be at the Supe/Dant level or lower, all the rules and regulations are going to change.</p>

<p>For the parent's this is a great first experience to learning to be flexible with the academy. I've had my parent's in town for football only to lose liberty because we made mistakes as a class and my company took it away. The best made plans are going to have to be able to change. You need to be supportive of your children, even if you don't think the decisions made have been the best. If you attack those decisions it only encourages your midshipmen to be more unhappy with where they are instead of seeing all the possibilities and good things that are happening for them too.</p>

<p>
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One of the things you quickly learn in the military is to go with the flow.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Preach it, Sister!</p>

<p>Those who do not learn that lesson, and QUICKLY, do not survive. Lord, I still remember my first harsh lesson, and it could have been far worse. I got much better at rolling with the punches after that...</p>

<p>To borrow from the movies: "Improvise! Adapt! Overcome!" :)</p>

<p>ETA:

[quote]
It is a small-minded decision that does not appear to further either the Academy's mission or the training of plebes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Appearances can be deceiving, Bill. Either the Sup/Dant know exactly what they are doing (in which case they are the bosses and the case is closed) or they simply felt like it (in which case... same thing). Either way, the Plebes, parents, and significant others are all learning an early lesson in military life, so by definition it has a benefit. Not all lessons are learned pleasantly, I'm sorry to say...</p>

<p>Forget the PPW overnight, try to imagine the profound disappointment of the families and servicemen/women who have their deployments extended in combat zones. Even sadder is if they're killed during the extended deployment. Let's put this in perspective, there are 18 year-old American marines and soldiers dying every week in Iraq and Afghanistan. </p>

<p>No one could love their child more than I do, but quite frankly I think the parents' events at the service academies border on the neurotic. Does this happen at Great Lakes or Perris Island? Last year some parents even showed up at 0330 for Sea Trials. Give me a break!</p>

<p>
[quote]
Last year some parents even showed up at 0330 for Sea Trials.

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</p>

<p>Good grief. Are you serious?</p>

<p>BTW, this marks twice in one week that we've agreed on something. Who are you and what have you done with usna09mom? ;)</p>

<p>USNA1985. I agree with you. I am not suggesting at all that I am in a better position to make the determination. My comment is that it "appear[s]" to not further the mission.</p>

<p>This does not affect me personally; I am not a 2011 parent. That doesn't mean, as I have tried to say many times, that one can't still think the decision is somewhat petty. That doesn't mean I am undermining the administraiton's authority or that I am in a better position to make the decision. Nor does it mean that the administration isn't capable of making "large-minded" decisions in the best interests of the Academy. </p>

<p>THIS decision, however, [without the benefit of being on the inside and without the benefit of having all information available to me] does not APPEAR to have any larger benefit.</p>

<p>This is no different than questioning the President of the United States--which more people should be doing on a regular basis--on some of the decisions he makes. I have been on the inside of operations, as have it sounds like some of the people on this site, that were reported to the public based on limited information. I am sure some of the decisions made at the time appeared screwy to the public but made perfect sense to us. I would guess the Academy administration considers this decision to make perfect sense. Surely they are rartional people who would not act in a manner contrary to what they thought was in the best interests of the mids.]</p>

<p>In life, as in the military and in many parts of government, decisions ar emade at a higher pay grade that you may or may not agree with. That still doesn't mean that you can't shake your head and move on.</p>

<p>"Small-minded" in that there are, I would guess, many, many more important things that should occupy the minds of the administration regarding mid welfare, training, etc. that might take precedent over this.</p>

<p>This is only important, more or less, to the parents. The mids will get along just fine. Certainly the precedent came about only because of unusual circumstances; that doesn't mean the permission shouldn't have happened, merely that, perhaps, nobody thought of it before. My understanding is that fears of undermining training were some of the basis for not permitting the night previously. Once it happened, there did not seem to be any adverse affect on training. So, it was permitted again, and again. If no adverse affect, why reverse course?</p>

<p>No, USNA69, despite your best efforts to re-write short-term history, you did start it. I did not post any comment about you prior to your postings about me. My original post was #2 or #3. Your slam was #4 or #5. The comment that you extracted came quite a bit later. But, then again, that is your MO, to mis-characterize facts so as to fit your perception.</p>

<p>USNA09. My understanding is that paretns were particularly out of control [using that term loosely] at I-day this year. You've read the stories of some parents being a bit over-enthusiastic during processing?<br>
We did not go to sea trials, but didn't they start at 0500 anyway?
Oh well, let those who criticize the parents [some of whom do go a bit overboad] stand tall when its their time.</p>

<p>Enough about this, time to move on to the next meaningless, time-consuming internet discussion by mid-aged adults [?] who have nothing better to do with their lives.</p>

<p>Come on people, your children joined the military.....you will not see them as much as you want. I have one son who is a Navy Corpsman deployed to Iraq with the Marines and one entering USMMA next week........I got to see my older son for all of 2 days, and only a few hours each day before he left; AND I'm not planning to see my younger son much either. </p>

<p>Welcome to the real world! Our children (as much as we love them) now belong to Uncle Sam.</p>

<p>I have two words for all new military parents:</p>

<p>SEMPER GUMBY :)</p>

<p>
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You've read the stories of some parents being a bit over-enthusiastic during processing?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please share! I need a good laugh or two to start the weekend! :D</p>

<p>
[quote]
My understanding is that paretns were particularly out of control [using that term loosely] at I-day this year.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>wow.... I really hope this was not the case- not a good way to start!</p>

<p>I don't know........it seems like our parent club spent a lot of time preparing not only the new "plebes," but their parents as well- just as we were mentored last year. For me, it helped to know what to expect, and made the "letting go" just a bit easier...</p>

<p>and that is what I was counciled by so many to do... to "let go".... "they belong to the US Government now" I was told, and it was a message I took to heart. Not easy letting go.... like I have said on so many an occasion- while the roots came relatively easy, the wings are tough!</p>

<p>But this is their journey-
not ours-
we get to share in only small parts of it-
and I would venture to say that gets less and less with the passage of time.</p>

<p>One weekend is not going to make a difference.
What will make a difference is letting them know you are supporting them.
"They live in a world beyond comprehension".....
I guess I am of the opinion that adding further to that is not in my son's best interest- so I try not to.</p>

<p>Which is not to say that I don't kick and scream with some of the other decisions he makes sometimes........or challenge him to think a bit further re: consequences.........but even there, some lessions have to be learned the hard way.</p>

<p>We just got a new VP at our hospital. Already there are changes. Some good, some less so. Some just plain dumb. Sometimes I think they change things just because they can....no rhyme or reason...sometimes just to shake things up a bit, to dust out the cobwebs and traces of complaciency-maybe just to let us know someone else is in charge now and "things will be different." Mind you- nothing substinative ever gets changed- sometimes it is just an "illusion" that work gets done any differently- when in fact, little of the real work- the work that counts- ever changes. Sort of reminds me "if it ain't broke............" ..... whatever. Life goes on, and no use loosing sleep over the little ripples that come your way....better to be a "cork on the water" sometimes......</p>

<p>like old slippers- even they have to get tossed every now and then!</p>

<p>have a good day folks- and a great weekend-
I am enjoying the few days of having our Mid at home-
will be shipping him back on Sunday for his YP adventure-
and resetting the countdown clock for our next visit!</p>

<p>Semper gumby!</p>

<p>I think there should be an entire year that parents can't see their children or send any packages. I guess they could allow a phone call on Christmas/Easter and a letter or two. Hah. Cut the umbilical chord. I know some people who go home once a month, spend $200 to just go home on a weekend, or call their parents every single night. Let them go, they'll return on their own...eventually...perhaps...if they want...if they'll be deemed worthy/allowed/not on duty.</p>

<p>I have a story. I saw a mid (a poor youngster just dropping by to watch the plebes) getting slapped multiple times by a crying mother who was saying, "Don't yell at my son! Don't yell at my son!" Poor lady; she didn't know that he wasn't even part of the cadre.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I saw a mid (a poor youngster just dropping by to watch the plebes) getting slapped multiple times by a crying mother who was saying, "Don't yell at my son! Don't yell at my son!"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You can't be serious.</p>

<p>PLEASE..... TELL me you're JOKING!</p>

<p>:eek::mad:</p>

<p>This is not at all surprising with the new Dant and Supt. All last year there were rumors that the new Supt would be making significant changes, and this appears to be just the first of many. Apparently during a speech in DC the Supt said that he didn't know when the Academy became a "yacht club" (heard it secondhand, so take that for what its worth). Like it has been said before, the Naval Academy experience is always in constant flux, and now everything is just turning the other way... All that being said, I had an amazing PPW, and I really don't think the overnight would have greatly affected the experience for me.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Apparently during a speech in DC the Supt said that he didn't know when the Academy became a "yacht club"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My kind of guy. :D</p>

<p>He's going to change this country club into a real military academy, or so that's word on Stribling.</p>

<p>I think in some cases the swing back is a positive change, however, i definitely enjoyed '07's run of priviliges.</p>