"No, the SAT is not Required." More Colleges Join Test-Optional Train

Applying to College
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<p>foolish notes in regard to my post,"1. “they have come to realize this fact”
This is not a fact; please keep your opinions separate from proven information.</p>

<p>Response: Just ask a few admission officers as I did. I know a kid personally who bombed the GMATs. He got into a good Masters program because he was able to meet the dean and sell himself. Thus, they let him in on provisional status. He graduated with highest distinction and first in his class. He even got a merit scholarship award. </p>

<p>Another kid bombed the LSAT. He got into law school using alternative admission.He graduated law school in top 10%. Admittedly, this isn’t a statistical corelation;however, I have met a number of people whose college and/or graduate grades didn’t correlate with their standardized test scores.</p>

<ol>
<li>“Moreover, some minorities, such as Asians, tend to do extremely well and better overall then then other groups”
This isn’t some inherent Asian trait; Asians as a whole likely tend to prepare more and place more emphasis on their careers. Why should we punish this mentality?</li>
</ol>

<p>Response; I agree that driven kids shouldn’t be punished regardless of race, creed or religion. However, I do believe as a result of discussions with many admission officers that they don’t want one type of kid as a majority of their class regarding race, sex, or geography. This is why Asian kids generally need higher test scores than their non Asian counterparts in order to get admitted to the tougher schools. Frankly, I think this is wrong,but it is what it is.</p>

<ol>
<li>“people with strong GPAs that wouldn’t normally do well on standardized tests”
What does this even mean? How does one acquire a strong GPA (which are based mainly on testing) without being able to take tests well? A 4.0 in a failing district does not instantly give one the title of “college ready”, whereas succeeding on a national exam tailored to fit a certain level of thought does appear to (or at least, much moreso than the raw GPA data). Those of upper incomes may have more prep available, but I think everyone can afford to save up $10 for the blue book, which is arguably the most useful prep material. Plus, many do not even need significant prep to do well on the exam; the type of people that these universities need are the ones who can do well on them without significant prep. A poor minority is not inherently given a 200 point deduction on the test; if anything, it’s an equalizer. I have seen people with lower SES score very high and people with very high SES score very low, it’s entirely up to the individual to succeed, and it’s this drive to succeed that breeds success in college.</li>
</ol>

<p>Response: Look at Texas as an example, To get into University of Taxes, you get an automatic admission ( or at least almost automatic) if you are in the top 10% of your class. Texas did this , based on their legislative history, in order to avoid the problems with affirmative action. Do you really think that only Texas is concerned about affirmative action or about diversity of their student body? Give me a break!</p>

<p>Bottom line: Achieving diversity is the Holy Grail for most schools. In the past they achieved this through either affirmative action or by using “subjective standards” in order to partially hide the fact that they are trying to limit one group from monopolizing the student body. If you don’t believe me, do a google search about why and when colleges started using “subjective standards” for admission. The reason at the time was to limit the number of Jewish admitted students.</p>

<p>Today, affirmative action is the gorilla in the corner. There are too many lawsuits involved and it raises the ire of many people. Eliminating standardized tests and using GPA and class ranking allows for more minorities and thus achieving greater diversity. Again, just check out why Texas eliminated the SAT for admission to UT. Don’t take my word for it.</p>

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<p>At the tip of my lips, is the word “trolling.”</p>

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<p>@lookingforward what is your basis and rational to say the @taxguy is “trolling?” Please explain.</p>

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<p>@SammyxB That’s an interesting thought. At Cal Tech they will take no AP exams to get out of their classes. You have to take their own placement exam to be excused from anything. Doing something similar for aptitude might not be a bad idea. And other schools could choose to honor those results or not. It could be a money make for Cal Tech or other school which commands such respect as to be a leader in candidate evaluation.</p>

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<p>@Taxguy wrote:

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<p>That makes no logical sense. It seems to me a lot more likely that the ad coms are simply likely to give SAT scores from Asians less weight overall, and look at more holistic factors. For example, an Asian applicant who wants to major in theater and relatively weaker SAT scores might get in over the prospective Asian computer science major with top scores, because the diversity goals are fluid. The overall statistical averages for admitted students might come out higher for Asians… but that doesn’t mean that any student “needs” a higher score to get in. It’s probably partly a self-fulfilling prophesy – the Asian applicants believe they need high scores, so they work to get those scores – when the reality is that the college ad coms simply aren’t placing a lot of value on those scores.</p>

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<p>calmom, I don’t remember where I read it, but I did see articles showing that Asian applicants seem to have to have higher SAT scores than others when applying to top schools. Perhaps it could be due to the fact that as a group, they tend to score higher than that of other groups. However, it makes no sense to me that they would need higher scores for admission than that of other top applicants UNLESS colleges are trying to limit their enrollment due to diversity reasons.</p>

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<p>Ha I know where you read it and the author of the study, a professor, dismissed this as a preliminary look see. Said don’t draw any conclusions based on this narrow preliminary study. </p>

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<p>Caltech’s frosh courses are significantly more rigorous than normal university frosh courses, so it is not surprising that AP credit alone is not accepted for subject credit or placement there. Example of Caltech’s “frosh calculus” course: <a href=“http://www.math.caltech.edu/~2013-14/1term/ma001a/#lect”>http://www.math.caltech.edu/~2013-14/1term/ma001a/#lect&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I think this article is quite interesting! Its nice seeing that at least a few colleges are taking a new stance on standardized testing!</p>

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<p>@taxguy, re post #225: you are confusing correlation with causation. If one group as a whole has higher test scores than others, then the stats of admitted students from the schools will skew higher, but that doesn’t mean that they “need” the higher test scores. It just may mean that a lot of applicants are spending needless energy studying for and retaking tests that won’t make much difference for admissions. </p>

<p>Here’s a example of why that is a fallacy: suppose I told you that male students need to be taller than female to get admitted to colleges. If colleges recorded the height data of all admitted students I bet it would be pretty easy to show that the average height of an admitted male student was higher than the heights of females-- and I could point to evidence of shorter women being admitted over taller men as clear evidence of a discriminatory height standard. </p>

<p>But obviously, with the exception of athletic recruiting for basketball, colleges don’t consider height in admissions.</p>

<p>Most do consider test scores, but only as one factor among many, and usually one of the least important factors once a test is above a certain threshold. It isn’t the test scores that is deciding factor for those high-scoring Asian applicants – it is with other factors. (One of which is athletics, because colleges do indeed recruit athletes and value students who have participated in high school sports – but of course that also is only once factor among many). </p>

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<p>So why aren’t there as many lower scoring Asians? If possible, let’s compare the admit rates for lower scoring Asian applicants. There are plenty of Asians with a 2200-2300 (or 2100-2200) sat score. Let’s look at their admit rate and compare it to the one for white people.</p>

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<p>plus it’s borderline racist to think that asians will spend excessive time on test prep; i’m pretty sure this phenomenon occurs among all races. … </p>

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<p>I was checking Bowdoin’s 2013-14 CDS. If Bowdoin is a test optional school, then why did it indicate that test scores are an “important” factor in the admission decisions on page 7 of CDS?
<a href=“http://www.bowdoin.edu/ir/images/cds2013-14.pdf”>http://www.bowdoin.edu/ir/images/cds2013-14.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Also why did Bowdoin not report the test scores of all of its incoming students since although it is not required for admission decisions, all students are required to submit their test scores prior to matriculating to Bowdoin. Bowdoin reported the scores of only 80% of its enrolled students for the 2013-2014 CDS.</p>

<p>Also, why is a test optional school telling its applicants that it superscores?
<a href=“Test Optional Policy | Bowdoin College”>Test Optional Policy | Bowdoin College;

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<p>Go down to section C8 for Bowdoin and you’ll see they are considered if submitted. You won’t be penalized for not including scores. </p>

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<p>If you submit them, they are Important, not Very Important. In C8, it says, Consider if Submitted. If you submit, they will superscore the SAT. if you want to understand it, I’ve said in the past, try contacting your own alma mater and asking how they handle things and make reporting decisions. Don’t guess.</p>

<p>As another poster said, in effect, don’t assume some little itch you discover is representative of some major disease. It’s not fully fledged reasoning.</p>

<p>If you want your kid to go to Bowdoin, they report the test stats for the percentages they declare. Maybe next year, they’ll report a larger percentage. The CDS is fluid. It’s also murky, in interpretation. Some posters think it’s gospel. No. It’s an aid.</p>

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<p>Neither Erin’s Dad nor lookingforward’s responses to my question about Bowdoin were helpful. So I searched the internet and found an article written by Jonathan Epstein for the Journal of College Admission in 2009. It is enlightening, well written and deserves a reading for those interested in what might be driving the Test Optional movement among some selective colleges today. Here is the link:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.maguireassoc.com/resource/documents/SAT_optional_article-NACAC_Journal_College_Admission_J.Epstein_7-09.pdf”>http://www.maguireassoc.com/resource/documents/SAT_optional_article-NACAC_Journal_College_Admission_J.Epstein_7-09.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Ah, I linked that in post #62.<br>
Lately, V, it seems there are a number of posters who throw out assumptions and then seem to expect someone else to be “helpful.” Then they ignore it and cycle back to their original pronouncements. I can name flaws in admissions, but don’t see a conspiracy, as some do. Do the legwork, consider, and learn. </p>

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<p>@lookingforward I went back to your post #62. Looks like I read your post but did not look at the link since I agreed with what you stated. I did learn that I should click all the links to see if the info might be helpful. I would urge others interested in the Topic of Test Optional schools to read the article by Epstein. </p>

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<p>I found the Epstein article from Jay Matthews “Class Struggle” article in the Washington Post. Those interested in a shortened synopsis of Epstein’s 12 page article can read Matthews’ article.</p>

<p><a href=“http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2009/07/what_the_sat-optional_colleges.html”>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2009/07/what_the_sat-optional_colleges.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>In general, I’m not keen on getting primary info from secondary sources, ie, getting it through someone else’s prism. It’s different when you read the original and then use another source to gauge your own understanding- or the accuracy and value of that later commentary. Afaiac, media reports have their own intentions. This problem comes up time and time again on CC topics. </p>