<p>It seems to me that reporting the actual SAT averages of all enrolled students (including non-submitters) would distort the picture of admission at these schools more than reporting only the SAT averages of submitters. If I were a student interested in Bowdoin, say, and Bowdoin reported the SAT scores of all students, including non-submitters, then that information would imply a lower SAT average for admittance than is actually the case, since non-submitters were admitted on qualities other than their board scores. Better for me, as an applicant, to know the scores only of the upwards of 80% of people who submitted them and were admitted with them, so as to know whether or not to submit my own scores.</p>
<p>That US News includes SAT averages as a component in ranking colleges seems to me to be part of the folly, because it does create, for schools recently changing their admissions policies, an incentive to go test-optional to increase their scores. But I suspect that inflated SAT scores matter far less in the tally of “selectivity” than admissions rate, which drops whenever a school decides to go test optional. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, for schools like Bowdoin, which had the policy in place at least 20 years before US News started ranking schools, it seems like a more nuanced quandary than that these admissions officers are gaming the system. </p>
<p>I agree with @pb2002 – the scores of nonsubmitters are irrelevant and should not be reported. By definition their test scores had no bearing on admission - if one non-submitter had a score of 1700 and another had a score of 2300 it wouldn’t matter, because in either case the college never considered their SAT scores for admission – so those scores had no bearing whatsoever on the overall selectivity of the colleges. </p>
<p>If it makes US News unhappy, then perhaps they should start publishing and weighting the percentage of students submitting test scores for a school. </p>
<p>If it makes US News unhappy, then perhaps they should start publishing and weighting the percentage of students submitting test scores for a school.<<<</p>
<p>Of course, and that is why the USNews should not have to weigh the intentions of Bowdoin anymore than they did with the gamers such as SLC. The USnews should have the backbone to list ALL schools that are unable or unwilling to report full and complete information in a separate unranked category. All nicely organized by alphabet. </p>
<p>If the SAT are irrelevant to the schools and the students looking at those schools, so should the rankings be! </p>
<p>Random point that popped up on my mind about the writing section.
It tests test preparation over IQ–contrary to actually writing with good grammar, you have to find the grammar mistakes and by test prep you know where to look and what mistakes they typically throw in there. Without preparation it can be very difficult to find those mistakes.</p>
<p>@voiceofreason66 referenced a very thoughtful article from the Journal of College Admission.
Good summary quote found in it:</p>
<p>[Reed College President] Diver is no big fan of the SAT. He believes the
test is imperfect, but that all admission measures are imperfect
and some are far less reliable than the SAT. While the SAT is
not overwhelmingly predictive of college success, it is “carefully
designed and tested to measure basic intellectual skills.” He
added, “Are admissions officers at SAT-optional universities
saying that the test scores do not provide probative evidence of
the possession of these skills? Are they saying that these skills
are not relevant to success in the educational program of their
colleges? Neither claim is remotely plausible.”
Diver takes issue with the idea that applicants know
themselves best and should be the ones to decide if their scores
represent them. “We all believe that we are better than our test
scores and, for that matter, our grade point averages, our writing
samples, and our interview performances,” he said. …
Diver described three interlocking issues: The SAT’s value to
predict what an institution seeks to identify; the cost-benefit to
using or not using the test in admission review; and the slippery
slope of inconsistency.</p>
<p>Bryn Mawr barely gets applications, so I wonder what else it could do to increase apps (except for going co-ed).</p>
<p>’“We all believe that we are better than our test
scores and, for that matter, our grade point averages, our writing
samples, and our interview performances,” he said.’</p>
<p>@pb2002 @calmom USNWR rankings are just that an imperfect ranking system. However, it is based upon whatever factors it feels should be used in its determination. We can agree or disagree with it but its rankings have nothing to do with Admissions at any school. Admission decisions are done by AdComs of each school. </p>
<p>So having test optional schools provide complete testing information is appropriate if USNWR needs it for ranking purposes. If the school does not want to be ranked or get a lower ranking because data is incomplete then it is free not to report the complete data.</p>
<p>fallen, you couldn’t be more wrong about hiring officers and interviewers at leading companies not caring about applicants’ SAT scores. Google will ask for them, Goldman Sachs will ask for them, Morgan Stanley will ask for them. And, most importantly, they will verify what applicants tell them. Your kids will need the SATs to apply for jobs at hundreds of truly desirable private and public sector entities in the USA. Your children’s SATs will also open doors before college begins. While in high school, a strong math and science student could be selected by the NSA (National Security Agency) for the Stokes Program. This program, targeted on minorities in their senior year of high school, provides a virtually free ride through college with an annual salary to boot. Paid summer employment throughout the post secondary years, travel and relocation grants, and a full time job at graduation could be your son or daughter’s reward, if s/he takes the SAT and does well on it (not spectacularly well, mind you, just “well” - check it out). The SAT can also be a ticket to MIDDLE SCHOOL academic enrichment programs for the gifted. My daughter spent 5 years in the prestigious Johns Hopkins University Center for Talented Youth (CTY) based on her solid Middle School standardized testing and CTY-required SATs taken in middle school (talk about test anxiety! imagine being 11 or 12 and walking into a high school on a cold Saturday morning to join thousands of 17 and 18 year olds to take the SAT!). CTY caters to all bright young children, regardless of academic interest, and irrespective of majority/minority status. CTY generously provided our daughter full scholarships and free travel arrangements every year. She studied graded subjects during the summers at college campuses across the USA. She could even have studied marine biology aboard a science vessel, had she had a hankering for biology. All because of the SAT. Let’s get real. Poor kids generally don’t do as well on the SATs as their wealthier peers because they can’t afford to move to better jurisdictions with better funded, better performing schools, and they certainly can’t afford the cost of the test prep and multiple test administrations that their well heeled competitors pay for with mere pocket change. They also often can’t pad their applications with extracurriculars and sports (most poor kids work 20-40 hours a week to help their families keep food on the table and a roof over their heads…something overprivileged college admissions officers neither know, understand nor reward at admission decision time). The competitive aspects of our education and hiring processes systematically reward people who do well on the SAT and its related standardized exams. Generally speaking, underprivileged students are not getting competitive test scores and they are being excluded from the very schools and jobs that would lift them out of poverty once and for all. We could wring our hands, continue as before, vote for feelgood politicians and wait another 50 years for affirmative action and civil rights legislation to chip away at the status quo. Or we could take a page from the playbook of the most academically successful minorities in our society today, Asians, and chart a new path for our kids. To this observer three facts about Asian families and the academic success of their children stand out: 1) Asian parents of modest means keep their families intact to fund the cost of raising their children. Just visit the local Family Court and take an admittedly unscientific head count of the Asians waiting to fight it out over custody and child support. You won’t find many Asian folks present. Most of the rest of underprivileged America wallows in family dysfunction and single parent poverty; our Family Courts are choked with their pleadings. 2) Asian parents find the dollars to send their kids to test prep “juku,” even if it means each parent having to work 120 hours a week at a grocery, dry cleaner or other blue collar job to do it. They know that high standardized scores get their kids into accelerated, specialized high schools and high SATs and APs get their kids into the most selective colleges and universities. Forget about waiting for the government to end discrimination; Asian parents know that Asians are not a privileged minority when it comes to the education and hiring of their children. They pile on extra hours of work to keep their kids out of part time jobs so that they can spend more time at programs like CTY, ECs, sports (golf anyone?) and, most importantly, more time at home preparing for the SAT, the Subject Tests, and the APs. 3) Asian kids understand what’s at stake and parents, grandparents and children know that today’s generation can purchase the American Dream in one lifetime, provided everyone knuckles down and plays by the rules. These rules, including over-reliance on SATs, are unfair now and will remain so for the next 10 years at least (long enough for any middle schooler to get into a top hjgh school, college and professional school and reward herself and her family for pulling and hauling to get her her shot at the brass ring). It’s a hard row to hoe for 5-6 years, from Middle School through entrance to Princeton. But oh, how rewarding it can be!</p>
<p>Interesting what classof79 has to say about the employers who request SAT scores (do they super-score ;)? Also, regarding his/her observations on Asian parenting, I would say that supplemental education, whether it is after-school tutoring or whatever, is certainly prevalent in this community. But, what may not be apparent to the rest of the world is the amount of time (and zero dollars) that Asian parents spend with their young children at the kitchen table reviewing basic concepts (particularly math, vocabulary words, and native language) during the early years. Likewise with the SAT/ACTs. It’s my strong bleief that anyone, and I really mean anyone who can earn a high school diploma can succeed on these tests with disciplined practice and motivation. It just might be that the discipline, motivation, focus, and commitment are what those parents are teaching, and that the scores are the immediate, but short-lived, rewards.</p>
<p>One other thing: A NM finalist from our school also did CTY at JHU when he was younger; he was also a multi-varsity letter athlete and worked summers at NIH. He got rejected at 4 out of 5 schools he applied to for engineering (two of which were in-state publics). Unfortunately, the one private university that he got into may be financially out of reach for him even with the NM scholarship.</p>
<p>@Leyland Would be interesting to see if the NM finalist you mentioned used the list of colleges where National Merit winners actually go (and the list of which ones give scholarships to NM finalists who actually enroll) in order to pick some “NM friendly” schools (<a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf</a> see pages 32-34). Despite the drop in importance of the PSAT/NMSQT, it can help at some great Universities. I suspect that there are many threads on this on CC. The “NM Friendly” list had changed a lot - now Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Texas A&M, USC, Wash U. in St. Louis, Georgia Tech, UT Dallas award a lot (those few schools probably grant the majority of school sponsored awards to NM finalists) - but surprisingly University of Chicago leads the pack. I wonder what would have happened if he applied to Chicago or Vandy or A&M or Georgia Tech (all of which have top programs in multiple areas)? My son had a classmate (NM finalist) who picked from among the state schools on that list and was offered free rides (or close) at a surprising number.</p>
<p>@2018RiceParent Thanks for the link to National Merit 2013 Annual Report. If high SAT test scores are not that helpful to determine college success according to the test optional schools, then how is it that 85% National Merit & Achievement Scholars reported a college GPA of A- or better and 92% graduated college with Honors. Data is on page 41 of your link. If data is accurate, it seems that high SAT scores are a good predictor of college success. </p>
<p>@voiceofreason66 Yes - I expect that "high SAT scores are a good predictor of college success"but narrow differences in SAT scores aren’t very good at distinguishing among students (by itself).</p>
<p>Clearly wide differences in SAT or ACT scores do result in statistically significant differences in outcomes, and even on the PSAT, those who are Commended or Finalists will have statistically significant differences in college success from those with average PSAT scores. The problem is that the range of scores at many colleges is so narrow (e.g. at Rice the ACT scores of the majority of enrolled students are narrowly clustered from 31 to 35) so their predictive value is not that great unless combined with AP scores, SAT 2 scores, and some form of normalized High School grades (hard to do, and expensive, given the wide variety of high schools, grading policies - but necessary). In the end, I suspect the SAT/ACT are used in large part at the majority of colleges because the scores are cheap/fast/efficient to read - and reasonably objective albeit imperfect.</p>
<p>Parents should try taking the modern SAT (free practice tests are online) - it is not bad for what it is trying to do - but it is fairly narrow in what it is measuring (basic math skills, ability to read and understand college level texts, and basic grammar/writing/editing skills).</p>
<p>While Wall Street companies may commonly ask for SAT scores, that group of employers is an outlier. Companies in the computer industry generally do not ask for SAT scores; Google would be an outlier if it does.</p>
<p>"One of the things we’ve seen from all our data crunching is that G.P.A.’s are worthless as a criteria for hiring, and test scores are worthless — no correlation at all except for brand-new college grads, where there’s a slight correlation. Google famously used to ask everyone for a transcript and G.P.A.’s and test scores, but we don’t anymore, unless you’re just a few years out of school. We found that they don’t predict anything.</p>
<p>What’s interesting is the proportion of people without any college education at Google has increased over time as well. So we have teams where you have 14 percent of the team made up of people who’ve never gone to college."</p>
Test scores are far from the only factor considered when admitting students, and test scores have notable correlations with other sections of the application, so comparing a small subgroup of students who achieved an exceptional score on the PSAT to the overall class is not particularly relevant to how much test optional colleges would suffer by admitting some students without considering their test scores. A more relevant question would be how much test scores add to predicting academic success in college beyond the components of the application that a holistic test-optional college would use to evaluate applicants who did not submit scores – HS grades, course rigor and selection, LORs, essays, etc.? I expect the answer would surprise you.</p>
<p>So, in other words, the pool of finalists/scholars is made up of students with both high test scores and high grades. It’s not surprising that this group would do well in college. What would be more instructive would be the performance of all semi-finalists, since this status is earned solely through PSAT scores.</p>
<p>I may have something to add here since I am from a jurisdiction that do not do standardized testing for undergrads; we use proxies instead.</p>
<p>A friend told me some years ago that her prof in a guidance course called our grade 12 calculus course the “invisible sieve”. Out of curiosity, I checked most of the competitive programs on offer in the province at the time and sure enough, they wanted calculus as one of the pre-requisites. The most extreme case was one engineering department that wanted all three senior maths, physics, chemistry, English, and the applicant’s score on the Euclid Math Contest for their most competitive specialties. I don’t think the SAT math section could have separated these applicants.</p>