<p>I would like to suggest SUNY New Paltz…it has the artsy and creative population your daughter likes and is great for studio art, theater, creative writing. It’s a green campus and the students are very environmentally aware. Many of the students are very health conscious and so there is a good population of vegetarians and vegans and those who are not into alcohol and drugs. While it is around, I think it is easy to avoid if one chooses to. </p>
<p>Good size - 6,000 undergrads. Great location and super fun artsy college town in the Northeast. Surrounded by mountains and nature…lots of farms, rivers, lakes, hiking, horseback riding, camping, etc. but 1 1/2 hours to NYC. The student body is down to earth, friendly and laid back.</p>
<p>Sounds like it could be a good match to check out. The price is right too.</p>
<p>I like St. Olaf a lot, but not for a dyed-in-the-wool atheist student. The atmosphere is just too Christian–not evangelist-Christian, but Christian nevertheless. The course information I quoted is indeed for two required courses in the curriculum. Note that there are several options available to fulfill the requirements, but ALL of them are explicitly studies of the Bible and/or Christian theology.</p>
<p>I know a girl from a very Christian (fundamentalist Christian) family. Her parents wanted her to go to a Christian college, but she didn’t much want to. Not that she’s rebelling or questioning her religion or anything, but just that she wanted be in a more diverse, mainstream student body. St. Olaf ended being a good compromise for them. It was Christian enough to ease anxiety in her mother (although her mother still says things like, “well, it’s Lutheran, but at least it’s Christian” ;)), but it was not so overtly Christian or so doctrinare as to turn-off the daughter.</p>
<p>^ A very good description of St. Olaf. Not fundamentalist by any means–it’s Lutheran, after all–but enough “mainstream Christian” to make many atheists uncomfortable.</p>
<p>This is a very enlightening discussion for European parents worried about reports of binge drinking in the US. At those idyllic rural/small town schools where there isn’t a lot of violent crime, do students drink and drive, or just drink on campus?</p>
<p>Mainly just drink on campus. Drinking and driving isn’t unknown, but most students recognize that as several levels of stupidity beyond merely drinking, so it tends to be a lot less common (and if it’s necessary there is often a non-drinking “designated driver”).</p>
<p>What about “substance free dorms” ? We were told by a student guide at one college tour that these dorms tend to collect those that already have substance problems and will turn out to be worse (as people relapse).</p>
<p>Anybody have experience with these? </p>
<hr>
<p>My D is on a substance -free floor at the University of Miami. She has met ZERO rehabbers. The kids are still great and fun, just more studious and interested in a wide variety of extra curriculars that don’t involve vomit!</p>
<p>BTW</p>
<p>The University of Miami is NOT the party school that some have made it out to be. The Administration has a zero tolerance policy. Partying ON campus is minimal. There is NOT a big Greek scene. Most partying happens OFF campus at house parties held by upper classmen, at the bars in Coconut Grove or at the bars in South Beach (which is kinda far from campus and not easy to get to). At orientation the campus police informed us that Florida has a fairly recent new law that makes getting caught with a fake ID a FELONY!!!
I can not stress enough how having a felony on your record would screw up your life.</p>
<p>^ It’s not a requirement of two exact courses, but one each from two categories of courses. I’m glad that there’s at least one atheist at St. Olaf, but I maintain that many/most? would be less laid-back about two explicitly Christian course requirements and the struggle of being a tiny minority. I think the number of open atheists/agnostics on the campus would be equal to or fewer than the “10 total Muslim students.” (Side observation: what do Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have in common? Monotheism and belief in a single omnipotent deity. I wonder–and maybe they do?–if St. Olaf offers comparative courses on Hinduism or Buddhism or secular humanism that fulfill the Christianity requirements.)</p>
<p>OP: My D is a freshman at Earlham College, which is run on the Quaker values of integrity, respect, etc. It is not a religion school; there are students of every conceivable faith there, as well students who profess no faith. Earlham embraces diversity of thought, including spiritual belief or non-belief. All of which is to say that I think your D would be comfortable there.</p>
<p>“Wellness” is big at Earlham, and alcohol is explicitly forbidden on campus grounds including dorms, and at college-sponsored events. My understanding of the reality is that while alcohol is not completely unheard-of, it is not publicly paraded; i.e., there are not loud keggers in the dorms, nor drunk students staggering around campus late on Saturday nights. Students we spoke to last year (and D now confirms this) said that there is no pressure to drink or drug; in fact, I suspect that if a student had a substance problem, THEY would be the one under pressure to get help. BTW, one of the dorms has a wellness wing, where students must commit to being drug- and alcohol-free. </p>
<p>Have her check out Furman. Beautiful campus, lots of envirnomental awareness, plenty of opportunity to explore her creative side, not a party school by any means.</p>
<p>^ Not a party school, but I haven’t heard many good things about the alcohol scene at Furman. The two are not always equivalent. I may be wrong.</p>
<p>For example, Grinnell is certainly not a party school, but nor is it a low-alcohol school. Beautiful, isolated campuses do tend to have that drawback.</p>
<p>I know Furman very well and I agree that it is a fantastic school for someone that is not into the drinking or drug scene. My D has visited there several times and it is her first choice. However, the OP mentioned that her D is an atheist and I am not sure how comfortable she would feel at Furman, which does have a mostly conservative, Christian student population. That is why I originally mentioned St. Olaf, since the drinking scene there is limited by their dry campus policy and the lack of a Greek scene. The student body is a little less conservative, even though it is Lutheran. I have been to both campuses in the last 8 months so my opinion is based on that experience, not hearsay or what I read in the curriculum. The bottom line is almost every college will have drinking, so the goal is to find the one where the non-drinker won’t feel out of place.</p>
<p>^ Are you an atheist? If you are Christian, I’m sorry, but your opinion on religious influence–even, or especially, based on subjective experience–is inevitably biased. I would like to hear from more than the single atheist at St. Olaf’s who was interviewed in a newspaper article (who also mentioned difficulty in finding secular/humanist allies).</p>
<p>I did forget how conservative Furman is, which lends itself to less drinking (usually); I was thinking of its geographic isolation.</p>
<p>No, I am not an atheist and no, I am not Christian, so your point about me being “inevitably biased” is not correct. Unlike you, however, I have actually been to these campuses and witnessed their culture firsthand. I have not formed my opinions by what I have read on the internet, I would rather see for myself. As far as Furman being geographically isolated, that is simply not true. It is in Greenville, a very cool little city.(although the city is about 10 minutes away from the campus) I appreciate your opinions and input on this thread as well as the others you have contributed to however I think you should state whether you have been to the schools that you are providing opinions on, it makes a difference.</p>
<p>^ Please note the IF in my previous statement. If you do not fulfill that criteria, fine–the second part of the sentence naturally does not apply. It does, however, apply far too often in these types of discussions.</p>
<p>I have not visited either St. Olaf nor Furman, and I made no claims to have done so. I have visited 20+ different schools and I find little value in visits. A subjective one-day impression often colors one’s entire perception of the school, which is inaccurate no matter if it’s positive or negative.</p>
<p>My opinion on St. Olaf is based upon curriculum requirements explicitly spelled out on the school’s website. If, as an atheist, the OP’s D is OK with these Christian requirements, fine–she is absolutely entitled to that and indeed, she will do better than I in a Christian USA. But I personally think it is fallacious to privilege subjective feelings from visiting over a clear indication of institutional mission. As an institution, St. Olaf clearly feels it important that all of its students receive a strong academic grounding in Christianity and the Bible as part of a liberal arts education. As an atheist, I don’t agree, and I think many atheists would not agree.</p>
<p>Re: Furman, my impressions are indeed subjective, but many different subjective reports adding up to a common factor are stronger than any single report. You said yourself that Furman’s student body is mostly conservative Christians. CB states that Furman is in the suburbs of a small city–perhaps not as isolated as Williams or Grinnell, but certainly moreso than Macalester or even Swarthmore (IMO). It is a “dry campus,” which means relatively little unless the students respect that for a philosophical reason as in Earlham; I have not heard of Furman as a particularly dry school. Please note the distinction between fact (St. Olaf’s curriculum) and hearsay.</p>
<p>I agree that St. Olaf is less conservative than Furman; I disagree that either school is a good fit for a dyed-in-the-wool atheist.</p>
<p>just because a school is conservative definitely does not mean less drinking. Clemson is a very conservative campus but drinking is pretty big here. Liberal schools = drug use, conservative schools = heavy drinking (that’s my stereotype)</p>
<p>This is a big topic of discussion among my friends and their college-age kids. It can be very difficult for students to find fellow non-drinkers on college campuses today. When I compare notes with adults who attended college in the '70’s, we all remember that there was alcohol and pot use back then, but it was not a pervasive part of the social life or campus culture and was easily avoided. We were not into drinking and never had problems finding like-minded students, yet today our various alma maters are known as having large drinking scenes, so I think there has been a shift in the last several decades.</p>
<p>The problem is that there are very few schools where a majority prefer to not center their social life around alcohol or drugs. My kids attend a large state school and on a positive note, there is no peer pressure to drink. But on the other hand, those large drinking parties are very boring if you are sober. </p>
<p>Brandeis and University of Chicago are the only schools I know with a large population of kids who have a social life that doesn’t revolve around alcohol. I don’t agree with that list posted on the first page. Anecdotally, I know of a student who transferred out of Harvey Mudd because of all the drinking and two others who developed big drinking habits there. I have also heard about lots of pot smoking at Tufts and Wesleyan which I don’t see as very different from alcohol.</p>
<p>“Anecdotally, I know of a student who transferred out of Harvey Mudd because of all the drinking…”</p>
<p>Wow. Well, if someone did this they are terribly sheltered and obviously did not seek out the Dean of Students to be placed in one of the many environments on campus that are substance free. Basically, I either think that your friend is terribly immature or transferred due to other reasons.</p>