<p>Had an interesting conversation during a Memorial Day picnic. An acquaitance of mine is in the process of moving back to Pennsylvania from the South. </p>
<p>He had an interesting comment to make. He said that in the North, the states and local jurisdictions put a lot of resources (money) into local school systems and a disproportionately smaller amount into higher education. In the South, he said that the opposite is true.</p>
<p>He said that tuition rates at public colleges in the northeast are the highest in the nation, adding at only state university in the northeast has anything close to a reputation for excellence in academics and research (Penn State). However, he noted that some of the finest public school districts in the nation are in the northeast.</p>
<p>Likewise he noted that many of the most competitive public universities in the nation are in the south (Charlottesville, Chapel Hill, Austin, Athens), despite having some of the lowest tuition rates in the United States. He said that he knew parents who drive 25 miles one way to take their children to a quality non-public school. He said he wouldnt send his sons and daughter to the local public school and was afraid that they might not be able to get into the nearby parochial high school.</p>
<p>I thought I would get some feedback from the participants in the forum</p>
<p>I wouldn't give an edge to the south for its public universities compared to the midwest; that's up north also. Likewise with the high schools- the midwest probably puts its money into both. Typical of an easterner to completely ignore the middle of the country.</p>
<p>There are plenty of good public universities in the Northeast. While they might not be as good as those in the south, they're still excellent schools.</p>
<p>In much of the South, the flagship state u is the only game in town. In Florida, the country's fourth most populous state, in Virginia, South Carolina, Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana (with Tulane's decline) and elsewhere, there are no first-rate private universities at all. In Texas, Georgia, Tennessee, and North Carolina, the number of good private universities is "one and done" and those schools are themselves esteemed out of proportion owing to the relative lack of competition. Statistically, student bodies at UConn, UMass, the SUNY system, and UVM compete favorably with most southern state u's but are overshadowed by the plethora of excellent privates in the Northeast and by comparison to the unchallenged internal primacy of the southern standard bearers.</p>
<p>The northeast is richly supplied with top-notch private universities and liberal arts colleges. There has always been less of an emphasis on the state university system in that part of the country than in other regions.</p>
<p>redcrimblue: In NC, the flagship university is an outstanding top public, true, but many of the UNC system's 15 other campuses are also excellent and usually have standout depts in particular fields. That includes NCSU, located in Raleigh--excellent sciences, engineering, textiles, and a design school-- all very well respected; UNC-Wilmington--excellent marine biology program among one of its strengths; the NC School of the Arts, part of the UNC system--absolutely nationally recognized and highly selective . . . </p>
<p>I think the reason some states (like NC) don't have a plethora of outstanding privates, is because the public system is so outstanding. Even so, NC does have more than just Duke (your "one and done" description). Certainly, both Davidson and Wake Forest qualify as top LACs. We also have about 35 other small privates, and while not necessarily as nationally recognized nor as selective as those 3, are certainly growing in recognition and popularity. They each have particular strengths as well. (Elon; Guilford; Warren Wilson, just to name 3).</p>
<p>khipper: I certainly think that's true for much of NC; the State seriously supports the UNC system, much moreso than it has ever supported the local school systems. That said, depending on the area, the local school system can be outstanding. Wake County's very successful public magnet system (instituted in 1982) has served as a national model. Chapel Hill and Charlotte also have excellent public schools, particularly high schools. The NC School of Science and Math, a state-wide residential magnet school--well known and selective (grades 11-12), located in Durham, is completely supported by the State of NC, as is the NC School of Arts, located in Winston-Salem (free for in-state students). </p>
<p>I expect this is true for some other Southern states as well; and the more wealthy the county, certainly, the better the local public school system--which is true everywhere.</p>
<p>Here on the borderline of the South (Maryland), several of our counties have public schools that are among the best in the nation.</p>
<p>We also have a good flagship state university (though not quite at the rarefied level of prestige of the flagship universities of Virginia and North Carolina), which offers a rare combination -- the atmosphere of a big, sports-oriented state university and close proximity to one of the nation's most interesting cities -- Washington, DC. </p>
<p>But I guess we are lacking when it comes to private colleges. Johns Hopkins is a great place, but it's certainly not to everyone's tastes. And there's nothing else here at that level of prestige, although we do have some nice liberal arts colleges at somewhat lower levels of selectivity.</p>
<p>Marian, We looked at Towson. We did like it, not knowing too much about it, since we are OOS. We did find that it is less expensive than schools like UCONN, UVM for OOS, but more expensive than other good state schools located in VA or Florida, for example. S might have headed to Towson, but he preferred James Madison, and we preferrred the pricing for James Madison. I had heard that some OOS had done well with scholarships in the past at Towson, but my son and other OOS applicants that we know had nothing offered to them (other than unsubsidized Stafford and parent loans).</p>
<p>The other man's grass is always greener....</p>
<p>I am living in Texas but grew up mostly in Virginia. For a state our size, Texas does not have many small LAC options. The mid-west, northeast, and southeast seem to do a better job in this area, IMO. Right now we are wishing we lived in PA or VA.</p>
<p>Our oldest passed up William and Mary because the OOS tuition would have killed us. My daughter is doing some college visits this summer while she is back east for a leadership conference. There are so many she wants to see, she will have to pick and choose. Most of the schools are located in VA or PA, some in MD and she won't get to see the mid-west schools on that trip. It seems like you can take a car and hit a bunch of schools without much effort. Down here, you have to drive several hours just to get to the first school in that category, and several more to the next.</p>
<p>I live in GA and am a PA native. I agree that public schools are often better in the north, at least in my limited experience. However, I think my kids' GA HS was better in some ways. (It is a wealthier district than the one I attended in PA, though.)</p>
<p>But I don't agree that public colleges are better in the south. In GA, the HOPE scholarship was instituted because of the brain drain of people fleeing the state to get a better education. We would have loved to take advantage of the HOPE, but my D couldn't find a public college in GA that could teach her the variety of foreign languages she was looking for. My S couldn't find the level of music school in the south that he was looking for. (Cincinnati was the only public school he applied to. The rest were private. All in the north.)</p>
<p>My D will be attending Miami U of Ohio, which, FWIW, is tied with UGA on USNWR. Univ of Mich is tied with UVA. On the list of Top 50 Publics, I count 13 southeastern schools, including 4 of the top 10. I included VA, MD, NC, SC, FL, and TN schools as "southern" - ie south-eastern. I don't see any Alabama schools on the list. </p>
<p>I count 12 in the north (I included 2 Ohio schools in that, but not schools that are northern, but more mid-western, like MI, IA, or IL.) 13 vs. 12 doesn't seem like a basis for generalization. </p>
<p>And many of the southern publics seem to limit the number of out-of-staters -- such as VA and NC. So the public tax-support of those schools seems to carry some stipulations. And other financial support, like the GA HOPE, are of course limited to residents. If you live in a state that supports your public flagship well, and it offers what you want, go for it. But I can't generalize that to cover regions.</p>
<p>I do agree that first tier schools in south can be expensive. If one looks at the tier below WM and UVA, you will find that they cost less than many second tier schools futher north, like Towson in MD. In fact, JMU is costing us only 3500 more as an OOS student than Rutgers would cost us at an instate price. Schools like the SUNYs would also have been less money for an OOS student than other publics in the north.</p>
<p>Some of the VA publics are 30% OOS. In NC OOS is much less (around 18%, I believe). Ohio has some wonderful schools too (public and private)!</p>
<p>binx: Just about all publicly funded state universities (at least the top ones) limit the number of out-of-state students don't they? I would think that's true everywhere. And, yes, the more financial support they receive from their state, the more restrictive they will be. The Virginia publics receive much less support from the State of Virgina than in NC; I <em>believe</em> in Virginia, that state support is something like 10%, compared to 40% in NC; consequently, the limit on out-of-state students is ~18% in NC, but something like ~30% in Virginia.</p>
<p>Lots of people like James Madison very much, northeastmom. I think your child made a good choice.</p>
<p>The Virginia state system is like a college buffet. There seems to be something there to fit everybody's tastes. There are a large number of Maryland students in Virginia state schools (paying out-of-state tuition, of course). It's often easier to find something you like in a big state's system than in the more restricted system of a smaller state like Maryland.</p>
<p>Marian, I guess you are right. I never thought of it that way. You are right, there are plenty of MD students at JMU (and I am sure at other VA schools). VA publics seem to get a lot of kids from NJ, NY and PA too.</p>
<p>
[quote]
He said that he knew parents who drive 25 miles one way to take their children to a quality non-public school. He said he wouldnt send his sons and daughter to the local public school and was afraid that they might not be able to get into the nearby parochial high school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Some of these differences are urban/rural. Illinois public schools near Chicago and other cities can be competitive, but much of Illinois is rural. From a recent UIUC Physics department newsletter:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Today, fewer than 80% of Illinois high schools offer physics. Of those who do, 54 percent of the physics classes are taught by someone whose certification is in a discipline other than physics.
<p>Agree that VA has a great cross-section of public and private schools! As a Md neighbor, we wish we lived there during our kids' senior years. MD schools don't offer the strong range found in VA universities/colleges -- geographically, demographically, or academically. The money I see spent on public uni's in MD does not seem to be invested in improving the range of choices, but on expanding the availability of a college education to more residents. A deliberate strategy with social merit, no doubt. But that may be why I see so many MD student leaving the state for college -- S had only one friend who stayed for College Park, and his father is a tenured prof in the system.</p>
<p>S1 refused to apply to a single MD school, even though he had a $10,000 scholarship at any public or private through generous Md Distinguished Scholars program. Instead, he applied to four VA schools, was accepted at all (incl OOS UVa) and offered merit money at three. Happily attending a private Va LAC, which costs us far less than MD in-state tuition. Another MD academic emigrant.</p>
<p>PA amazes me with the diversity it has in its higher education.</p>
<p>You've got your Ivy League: Penn
your top research school: Carnegie Mellon
your top LACs: Swarthmore, Haverford
your large, highly regarded, urban state research school: Pitt
your smaller, highly regarded private schools: Villanova, Lehigh, Bucknell, St. Joe's
your giant, rural state research school: PSU
your other well-respected LACs: Bryn Mawr, Washington & Jefferson, Allegheny, Grove City, Muhlenburg, Gettysburg, Chatham, Carlow
your medium, urban, decent private school: Duquesne
your big, urban, decent public schools: Drexel, Temple</p>
<p>NY is also excellent, with Cornell, Columbia, NYU, Syracuse, Ithaca, SUNY, etc. But it just doesn't have the same quality of public schools as PA.</p>