Northwestern or Penn?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Northwestern University
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<p>i can have a "rich intellectual experience" curled up with a book of Rumi's poetry, having a heated political debate among friends, or sitting on my laptop learning... well, literally anything i want. </p>

<p>for those interested in applying to NU:
If you feel that attending a university is solely a means to achieving some kind of intellectual catharsis, then NU MIGHT not be for you--or at least, there are better schools out there for that. Look into liberal arts schools or apply to UChicago, its easier to get into and more highly-ranked anyway. NU students are very preprofessional, with Econ being the most popular major, and pre-med students pack Tech library on a nightly basis. History majors--who actually just want to learn history and not go to law school or become a journalist-- are few and far between.</p>

<p>And for those of you who are bent on flaming me, please stop. I'm just trying to help those incoming NU freshman and those considering applying to NU. Yes, I intend to pursue a career in business, just as many Northwestern students do (Econ is the most popular major at NU). So my posts will be from the perspective of... surprise, surprise... an NU pre-business student. If you have a different background, feel free to express yourself, but do not get defensive and attack me in the process.</p>

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<p>xkcd</a> - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe</p>

<p>Remember, its people on the other side of the screen!</p>

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And for those of you who are bent on flaming me, please stop. I'm just trying to help those incoming NU freshman and those considering applying to NU. Yes, I intend to pursue a career in business, just as many Northwestern students do (Econ is the most popular major at NU).

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<p>Yes, I know, I was an econ / MMSS major at NU and went straight into business myself :-). Nonetheless, the pre-professionalism seems to have really intensified and coalesced into very specific goals ("I'll take i-banking / mgt consulting on Wall Street, please") and I'm not sure that's completely a good thing.</p>

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<p>I went to Northwestern, twenty-five years ago, and from all that I've read the school has changed. My recollection is that Northwestern was more "balanced" in the past. Now it seems to be half pre-business and the other half pre-theatre, some journalism to round things out, and less socially adept overall. </p>

<p>Everything is so much more competitive now. I wasn't/am not a slacker - it's just that our decisions were made on more than rankings. That's not to say we didn't see ourselves as "Harvard of the Midwest" at times, it's just that we didn't think that much about it. I don't think there was as much Ivy envy - though admittedly there were few of us who chose Northwestern over an Ivy.</p>

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<p>I agree completely, NUGraduate. It's sad, really, to see all these i-banking drones. The econ majors of our day wanted good jobs, of course, but didn't worry about it til senior year, and certainly weren't all starry-eyed over Wall Street. As someone who did choose NU over an Ivy, I was simply choosing NU over Penn for some personal fit reasons ... not because there was some larger "Ivy vs non-Ivy" calculation that needed to be made.</p>

<p>And I'd also say the MMSS-ers of our day were <em>far</em> more interested in public policy, econometric research, psych research, academia, etc. than Wall Street / the business world. I would hate to think that MMSS resembles Wharton. Nothing against Wharton, but it's just not ... Northwestern any more. Part of the specialness of NU was that it <em>didn't</em> have undergrad b-school, that your econ major was more liberal arts-y, that there was a total of one accounting class and that you *weren't encouraged to take classes in Kellogg because that was too pre-professional.</p>

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<p>I took that accounting class - it was huge and the only thing I remember was that I went on a date with my TA! We went on a double-date with my roommate who was 19, and I was 20. Class had ended a month or so before. We went to a bar in the Skokie area and we were carded. My roommate had a fake ID, the guys were over 21, and I was carded. We had to go to Howard Street.</p>

<p>What does this have to do with Wharton vs. Penn? Well, at least we had time for a social life at Northwestern. I wonder if it is the same today.</p>

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It's sad, really, to see all these i-banking drones.

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<p>Is NU really full of them now? The two Kellogg cert programs aren't full. The first managerial analytics class will have only 36 students. Perhaps the ones on CC are just biased samples? :)</p>

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<p>From what I've seen on the MMSS alumni newsletter, the MMSS-ers seem a lot more preprofessional / business focused than they were in my day, but that's just anecdotal. I <em>think</em> I was the only one in my MMSS class who even interviewed with the then-Arthur Andersen Consulting (got the offer, but chose another company instead).</p>

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<p>I'm not sure how NU becoming more pre-professional has anything to do with a weakened social life. Now obviously NU isn't as crazy as some of the other Big 10 schools, but judging by the packed Evanston bars (plus the deuce) on mondays, wednesdays, thursdays, and the weekends, and judging by the fact that greek life still dominates Northwestern, I think Northwestern is quite social for a T15 school. Anyway, the stereotypical "i-banker personality" tends to be one of someone who loves to work hard, play hard, and indulge heavily, so I'm not sure how the popularity of i-banking leads to less socialization.</p>

<p>NU is also still very well-rounded as a school, that's what I love about it. Sure, consulting at MBB or and i-banking at a bulge bracket are the most desired career paths for an Econ/MMSS major... what's wrong with that? It only seems natural as these are the most difficult jobs to get ("prestigious"), and the highest paying. Call that superficial, but many high-achieving students today do have their eyes on the prize. Anyway, besides the pre-business, pre-med and pre-enginereing that swarm ALL campuses across the country, NU has pre-journalism, pre-theater, pre-film, and aspiring professional athletes. In my opinion this is quite balanced/well-rounded.</p>

<p>I can't speak too much towards MMSS since I'm not in it, but all my friends who are in it definitely want to pursue a career in IB or consulting. Even the Kellogg undergrad certificate: Managerial Analytics sets you up well for Management Consulting, and the Finance one is perfect for i-banking. Call them "i-banking" drones, but that's just what's popular today.</p>

<p>And the reason the first Kellogg classes were not full is due to how difficult it is to get all the prerequisites in time. Now that freshman know about the program in advance, they will be able to complete all the prerequisites and I'm sure there will be many more applicants.</p>

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<p>What's depressing about it, blazin hazin, is that i-bankers don't actually create or do anything. They just move around money to fund other people's ideas. Why not be the person who comes up with the creative ideas that change people's behavior? (whether it's buying goods or services) Why think that the job that just finds and moves around the money is more "prestigious" or "better" than being the actual creator of something, the innovator, the person who looks at what is and figures out what could be? It's so completely backwards. Yes, I understand that the money is needed and that i-bankers play a role. But they have no role to play if people aren't creative and innovative.</p>

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I can't speak too much towards MMSS since I'm not in it, but all my friends who are in it definitely want to pursue a career in IB or consulting. Even the Kellogg undergrad certificate: Managerial Analytics sets you up well for Management Consulting, and the Finance one is perfect for i-banking. Call them "i-banking" drones, but that's just what's popular today.

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<p>It's sad because the intent of MMSS was to create better social scientists, applying mathematical rigor and talent to econometrics / public policy issues, psychology and sociology, not to create better-prepared people for Wall Street. MMSS was kindy of wonky-UChicago-ish; I was considered "not serious enough" because I was in a sorority, had a boyfriend, and actually wore that year's fashion! But nonetheless, it was nice to have that kind of small-group-intellectual environment, and we weren't cutthroat with one another. I would imagine that a bunch of students who are all falling over one another to get the same handful of i-banking or mgt consulting jobs are going to be more cutthroat and not helpful to one another, and I think something's lost.</p>

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What's depressing about it, blazin hazin, is that i-bankers don't actually create or do anything. They just move around money to fund other people's ideas.

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<p>Not long ago, I saw a book called something like "Top 50 (or 100?) Bull ***** Jobs" and investment banking was listed. :)</p>

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<p>i hate to prolongate this thread, but i just help but correct you on this gross misconception. this is the same thing my disappointed high school AP History teacher said to me when i was a freshman at NU and told him i think i wanted to be an i-banker. then i asked him what an ibanker does exactly and he said "they take rich people's money and invest it for them." as i went through my freshman year and sophomore year and learned more about all careers in finance, i found out that's private wealth management, not ibanking.</p>

<p>the point being, a lot of people like to have opinions on how terrible IB is, but few know what ibankers actually do. Ibankers dont create anything? How about creating more efficient companies by advising firms to merge together? How about saving lives and making individuals daily lives easier, by helping healthcare and technology company raise billions in capital for new ideas? What about creating high-yield investments for individuals by having huge multinational corporations go public on the stock market or issue bonds? All of these activities work to create wealth that not only favors big businesses, but individiual shareholders as well. I wouldn't call all of that "bull****" work. im talking about investment banks as a whole here, not individual analysts who have to put together pitchbooks, obviously there will be lots of BS work at entry level in any career.</p>

<p>Besides all of that, I think students have a right to go into whatever field they want to. Just because you dont like ibanking doesnt mean Northwestern students (and ivy league econ majors everywhere) are suddenly corrupt and heartless, thinking only of their own pocketbooks. First of all, there's nothing wrong with going where the money is--whether you are a kid from the projects or a prep school ivy league boy with a family history of success, it's totally reasonable that young kids would want to grow up and be rich. Second, humanitarianism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive--just look at the advent of microfinance. Furthermore, programs like Teach for America (which i would argue does a LOT of good for the community) work closely with investment banks and other financial institutions to attract those students who want to give back to the community before pursuing their own individual ambitions. Lastly, one can do a lot more good for the world being a billionaire than being anything else; some of the greatest philanthropists in history have been the super-rich. </p>

<p>As for the being cutthroat part, an MD at the bulge bracket private wealth firm told me: "Always help people. Go out of your way to help people, do whatever you can. Not only is it the right thing to do, but you never know when you will need a favor from that person." Personally, I know many people in my graduating class who I have helped learn more about finance and help set them up with jobs by getting them in touch with the right people, or help them get into finance clubs on campus to learn more about the field. Maybe some people are cutthroat d-bags, but those people exist in all areas of study, not just business. For instance, i've heard of pre-med students who don't help others with questions on material because they dont want to risk the curve being higher. These people are looked down upon in society, and they may end up being successful but when they need help from someone else, they will be lost.</p>

<p>I know that was a long post, hope it didn't come off defensive/confrontational, I just think some of you on this board are grossly mistaken in your perception about the desired career paths of high-achieving pre-business students today.</p>

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What's depressing about it, blazin hazin, is that i-bankers don't actually create or do anything. They just move around money to fund other people's ideas. Why not be the person who comes up with the creative ideas that change people's behavior? (whether it's buying goods or services) Why think that the job that just finds and moves around the money is more "prestigious" or "better" than being the actual creator of something, the innovator, the person who looks at what is and figures out what could be? It's so completely backwards. Yes, I understand that the money is needed and that i-bankers play a role. But they have no role to play if people aren't creative and innovative.

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<p>Your post is so erroneous, I had to make a post.</p>

<p>Bankers, like ordinary people, see value. But what separates people in finance from others is that bankers determine value. You go to Starbucks and order your morning coffee. You complain about the exorbitantly high prices, but you don't think twice about it. The average person doesn't. They trudge to work and carry on with their lives. Bankers linger for a moment longer: why is the price of a latte so high? Why is this particular latte valued in the way it is in comparison to a latte from a different coffee shop? As bankers, we answer these fundamental questions every single day. Not just for lattes, but for commodities, natural resources, land, companies, etc. It's more than supply and demand. It's more than market dynamics. Oscar Wilde once said that the cynic knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing.</p>

<p>Have you ever worked for a start-up? I have, and I can tell you how difficult it is for a start-up to become self-sustaining. You must be a hopeless idealist if you think ideas, by themselves, fuel the world. Innovation alone will get you nowhere. What would the world be like if people thought the Wright's idea of an airplane was useless, more harm than good, and injected NO value into the lives of others? Luckily, when the Wright's needed money to continue their operations, investors saw value in their idea. An idea, no matter how creative it is, is simply an idea. It means relatively very little if that idea is not valued by the consumer, the markets, and the general public. You make the mistake of thinking that the investors are not creative, insignificant, and disposable. That couldn't be further from the truth. Investing requires innovative foresight, acumen, and an appetite for risk. Your parents, for example, believed in you and supported that belief by funding your college education (I'm assuming). How different would your life be if your parents had said "Yeah, we believe in you and your lofty dreams of becoming a doctor or lawyer or teacher, but we're just not willing to invest any money in you. Furthermore, we're not going to co-sign any loans. Well, here's the application for employment at McDonalds"? </p>

<p>You also make the mistake of thinking that the innovators are not rewarded. I don't think Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Bill Gates, and Andy Bechtolsheim are complaining too much. Do you?</p>

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<p>I really don't think this is supposed to be a thread discussing the legitimacy of people's career tracks. To each his own, you know? It's not anyone's place to say which jobs are or are not good ones to pursue or simply learn about at college.</p>

<p>I think the OP's question has been discussed at pretty great length and we can all move on to new threads before this gets too heated...</p>