<h2>"I think y'all are putting WAY too much stock in the minor differences in ranking between Michigan/NU and UNC/Duke. Something like Michigan State/NU or NC State/Duke there would be significant differences."</h2>
<p>I don't think anyone has stated that it was a big factor - and certainly not one worth tens of thousands of dollars.</p>
<p>But as someone who has done recruiting and talked to numerous other people in recruiting - such things do play a factor (esp. in certain areas).</p>
<p>Ditto on what k&s said about recruiting. Top firms in many industries place weight on the undergraduate institution and use the selectivity of these schools as something of a screener. But, as Alexandre points out, this is only the first step and while one's undergraduate school may open a few doors, it will be up to the individual to prove that they are worthy. </p>
<p>As for my earlier post quoting statistics that USNWR uses in its annual rankings, I just wanted to introduce a few facts into the discussion. Alexandre and others can object to their use and their weightings in the USNWR rankings, but the facts are still the same and Northwestern appears to have the edge in nearly every area. The only referenced number that is subjective is the Peer Assessment where Michigan has a slight edge. Anyway, I agree that one won’t choose a school solely on these criteria, but they are facts and they will affect the quality of the experience (academic and social). And as has been said elsewhere, the most important things in undergraduate experience are quality of faculty, quality of student, and size of the classroom. Pretty simple, but I see a lot of truth in that. </p>
<p>While many on this board will argue strongly against this, IMO Michigan is not some uber selective university. Good school? Yes. Well-rounded? Certainly, as it offers an extremely broad menu of academic offerings. But elite? I have a harder time with that one. For crissakes, Michigan has over 25,000 undergraduates and a 57% acceptance rate (same rate as the University of Florida, BU, Clemson, and University of the Pacific). By comparison, the traditional comps of Michigan of Berkeley, Virginia, and UNC have acceptance rates of 27%, 38%, and 37%. I’m not trying to insult anyone and start a fight, but Michigan’s numbers demonstrate that it is not as selective as the other most commonly mentioned top publics, much less the top privates, including Northwestern.</p>
<p>I agree that 'selectivity' is often used as a weeder into top programs (in fact, I know more about it than the majority of people on these boards), but I don't see UMich being a place that a top consulting firm or IBank would skip over because it has a higher acceptance rate. The top 25% of the class is very strong, I'm sure Alexandre will have exact statistics. These are the type of students that the 'high end' employers are looking for, and they are certainly available at Michigan. If there's any doubts, remember that companies like Goldman Sachs and Bain ask for SAT scores ... this should clear up most doubts in the calibur of student they're looking to hire. </p>
<p>With 25,000 undergrads (and not in a highly populated state like California), it's tough to get an 'ultra selective' class. There may be fewer % of students with 1500+ SATs, but they certainly do exist and Michigan has a great reputation so emplyers will gladly hire a graduate of the school.</p>
<p>Hawkette, as tempting as it may be, I don't think this is the place to begin yet another Michigan vs Northwestern debate. Everybody has his/her own take on what makes for a good undergraduate experience. My only aim in this thread is to tell the OP that Michigan and Northwestern are similar enough that a significant different in cost either way isn't worth baring unless money isn't an issue to his family.</p>
<p>It is really depending on what are you going to be in the furture.
If you want to be a engineer, it is better to stay in UM.
If you would like to be Pre-med, Pre-law, or Pre-bus and you will work hard in the school, may be it will be better to go to NU.
Said for GPA of 3.5 and above from any ives or UN with same mcad or gmat
or lsat score you might have better chance to get into first tier med, law, or b-school.
For those schools, student body is different. You have to work harder to maintain at high GPA.
For GPA 3.0 and below, it won't make any difference for you to go any school.</p>
<p>Tourguide, here's an interesting essay written by Michigan's ex-president, James Duderstadt. It is longish, but it answers some of your questions as to why a university in a non-descript area could somehow become one of the pillars of the academic World. I think it had to do with three things: 1) Exceptional leadership. 2) Institutional independence. 3) Pioneering spirit.</p>
<p>
[quote]
By comparison, the traditional comps of Michigan of Berkeley, Virginia, and UNC have acceptance rates of 27%, 38%, and 37%. I’m not trying to insult anyone and start a fight, but Michigan’s numbers demonstrate that it is not as selective as the other most commonly mentioned top publics, much less the top privates, including Northwestern.
[/quote]
Okay, let's do it your way. The acceptance rate of Northwestern at 30% makes it less selective than most of its private peers, plus UCB/UCLA(27%), USC(27%), Tufts(28%) ... and Pepperdine(28%). The great University of Chicago with acceptance rate at 40% is less selective than all of the above, plus NYU(37%), GWU(37%), UVa(38%) and UNC(37%). Well, I suppose you get my point.</p>
<p>If you really want to go with US News, there is another factor called "Selectivty Rank". You may want to take a look at that.</p>
<p>Tokaicarbon, Michigan and NU have similar placement rates into top Law, MBA and Medical programs. I am pretty certain if applicants with identical GPAs and test scores from Michigan and NU apply to a graduate program, the determining factor will most likely boil down to essays and interviews.</p>
<p>Alexandre, thanks for being apparently the only person here who understood my post #68...I was indeed looking for insight into why U of M happened to surge ahead of the other state flagships. I thought perhaps it was because a lot of the earlier settlers in Southeast Michigan were French merchants whereas other states had more frontiersmen and immigrant peasants, or its proximity to the bountiful auto industry money and resources. Clearly something happened to push it ahead of its counterparts in other states.</p>
<p>The people who think U of Michigan's relatively high acceptance rate undercuts its eliteness don't grasp the attitudes within the state of Michigan. I have often read on this site how it's very common for even average students in Florida, Virginia, California, and North Carolina to fire off a perfuntory application to their in-state flagship. That does not seem to be the case in Michigan. The citizens here seem to be aware that only top students would fit in there, so it seems like only the top ones bother to apply. I worked with a very smart young guy who couldn't get into his desired program at Michigan so he "settled" for Carnegie Mellon.</p>
<p>And even a lot of very bright students are happy to go to Michigan State, Wayne State, or other in-state publics. I have a brilliant cousin who got his Ph.D. at Michigan who was happy to wallow in Wayne State University's urban diversity as an undergrad; the valedictorian of my class at the Michigan high school I attended was happy to do her undergrad at Central Michigan U. The combination of a wide variety of in-state options and an amazing scarcity of people who depend on their college to provide them with social status keep the U of M from getting the huge # of applications it would probably get if it were in, say, Illinois or Pennsylvania.</p>
<p>^^Agree with TG. Once admissions went holistic, it seems more and more in-state students started thinking twice before applying. Michigan's individualized app (not on the common list) with multiple essays takes enough effort to weed out the less-than-serious kids. The drop in the overall acceptance rate is also having an effect with in-staters. Alexandre has the correct figure, but I believe it dropped into the mid-40's this past admissions cycle and is expected to drop even further this year. Our public school district is one of the top performers in the state which traditionally sends a healthy number of kids to Michigan every year. Yet, I've been noticing much more self-selection recently. Solid kids scared off since they think their stats might be borderline, or that they might not be able to keep up with the academic pace even if they were admitted. An interesting trend for a flagship state U.</p>
<p>Now that Michigan and NU are rivals. </p>
<p>Maybe it's more fun to talk about the upcoming swimming tri-meet tomorrow. </p>
<p>Wow, 3 swim teams, one pool, and a "double dual meet." What time does the tailgating begin?</p>
<p>While many athletes are built to be speedy the event here posted is more suited to those be-hipped for speedo: Rockin' the house!</p>
<p>Regrettably, unflattering…and yet better than the silk gear of bowlers; or far worse, bowlers in Speedos.</p>
<p>Haha...yeah, fire up those grills around the ole Natatorium. So, Sam...I take it swimming is Northwestern's claim to fame when it comes to intercollegiate athletics? Will you be road tripping to Ohio State for this big event?</p>
<p>Road tripping...hmm..I live in CA though. </p>
<p>Okay, I admit NU isn't known for having the most die-hard sports fans. So the answer is "No". :)</p>
<p>Dorothy_ParkerX,</p>
<p>What do you think about Aussie Bum?
<a href="http://www.aussiebum.net/en/index.php?rid=5%5B/url%5D">http://www.aussiebum.net/en/index.php?rid=5</a></p>
<p>Come on, Sam. Live in Cali? No problem. Having to hop a plane wouldn't stop a loyal Wolverine, especially for an athletic event of this magnitude.;)</p>
<p>What I was talking about was something a little different from acceptance rates (which can vary widely depending on the size of the school; whether the school is a state school or THE state school; has a local or national reach; etc.).</p>
<p>While the top 20% (or so) attending UoM would match the profile of the student body at NU - the problem is that the rest don't (35% of the students at UoM have an ACT score over 30, at NU 69% do).</p>
<p>Take UVA and Duke for example. Many consider UVA the top public university - however, do you really think that certain employers aren't going to look at applicants from both schools differently (if only slightly)?</p>
<p>Similarly, if an employer had a choice btwn a newly-minted NU grad or a UoM grad based on nothing but knowledge of the make-up of the student body - which grad do you think is going to get the "benefit of the doubt"?</p>
<hr>
<p>As for sports - even though NU doesn't have nearly the same no. of varsity sports as large state schools like PSU, dOSU or UoM - NU has placed in the top 30 in the rankings of the Director's Cup the past couple of years (last year NU placed 29th; UoM placed 24th).</p>
<p>NU, btw, has (or recently had) better teams than UoM in wrestling, soccer, lax, tennis, golf, swimming, softball and tied UoM in the B10 for FB in 2005 and came 2nd to UoM in baseball last year.</p>
<p>GoBlueAlumMom,</p>
<p>It's freezing in Ohio right now while it's warm in where I live! :p</p>
<p>While my buddies and I were grilling some brats and chugging some Stroh's outside the natatorium, my buddy Zeke commented on how odd it was that cold water in the pool would make the male swimmers MORE streamlined, but the female swimmers LESS streamlined. I told him to shut up and pass the mustard.</p>
<p>To all Michigan boosters,</p>
<p>Michigan is a very good state school. Period. End of sentence, paragraph and thought. Inhale. </p>
<p>I'm not looking to tear down Michigan-remember, I concur that it is a very good school. But, contrary to the views of many on CC (many of whose views are tainted and clouded by virtue of being either students or alumni or have family ties), Michigan is not some mega elite, highly selective, hugely prestigious undergraduate institution (at least in comparison to the USNWR Top 20 national universities). And k&s’s comments above are right on the money.</p>
<p>As for USNWR's numbers, I agree with GoBlue in not liking the subjectivity of the weightings and believe that the subjective weightings distort the numbers in order to render a ranking decision that will be accepted by the masses of magazine buyers. While GoBlue correctly points out Michigan's high Selectivity rank, does he/she recognize that this number itself is weighted in a subjective fashion (50% to standardized test scores, 40% to class rank, and 10% to admission rate)? Understandably, Michigan supporters like to promote their high Selectivity rank, but they don't like to hear much about their high admission rate. </p>
<p>With regard to the application habits of Michigan high schoolers, perhaps you are right that the culture of Michigan is so unique that only the best students even contemplate making application to the best state school and that keeps the number of applications artificially low and the admissions rate high. But Michigan is not the only place where the in-state students have a lot of pride in their flagship university and somehow I doubt that the application behavior of high school students is that different from other states with prestigious (at least to in-staters) state schools, eg, UCB, UVA, UNC, UT, UF. And while I appreciate Tourguide's anecdotes about in-state students choosing U of M over the likes of Carnegie Mellon, they prove nothing. The numbers are what the numbers are. </p>
<p>Again, Michigan is a very good state school and it's probably even great in selected departments. I agree that the top quarter of its students are academically competitive with many of the students who attend the USNWR Top 20. So it's all very good, but please, enough of the claims that Michigan is an equal to or superior to the top privates in the country. And as for a direct comparison with Northwestern, the U of M is quite large and, based on the objective data provided in the Common Data Set of each school, the average student quality is definitively below that of Northwestern.</p>