<p>That's not entirely true for new grads. </p>
<p>Since UoM has a bit more variance in the HS grades/scores of its student body - certain employers will take a closer look (just as a law firm would give a bit more slack to the cv of a Columbia grad as opposed to a Fordham grad).</p>
<p>By the time he has graduated from UMich, he shoudl have far more than grades and scores. He should have done some research, worked in labs, and again, gotten letters of rec. Those mitigate any "name brand" issues, although again, I question that there would be any to begin with.</p>
<p>And to be honest, a Northwestern grad without those things will be SOL despite the name.</p>
<p>Northwestern vs Michigan</p>
<p>The CC world is loaded with Michigan boosters and this school constantly gets rave reviews from posters, but the numbers pretty clearly indicate that Northwestern is a stronger school and provides a higher touch undergraduate experience. Consider the following head-to-head numbers drawn from the 2007 USNWR rankings:</p>
<p>Graduation & Retention Rank
Northwestern: 8th Michigan: 28th
-% of Students expected to graduate in 6 years:
Northwestern: 91% Michigan: 77%
-% of students who do graduate in 6 years:
Northwestern: 93% Michigan: 86%</p>
<p>Faculty Resources Rank:
Northwestern: 9th Michigan: 69th
-% of classes with 50+ students
Northwestern: 9% Michigan: 16%
-% of classes with <20 students
Northwestern: 72% Michigan: 43%
-Faculty/student ratio
Northwestern: 7/1 Michigan: 15/1</p>
<p>Student Selectivity Rank:
Northwestern: 17th Michigan: 22nd
-Average SAT/ACT:
Northwestern: 1320-1500 Michigan: 26-31
-% of students ranking in top 10% of high school class
Northwestern: 82% Michigan: 89%
-% acceptance rate
Northwestern: 30% Michigan: 57%</p>
<p>Financial Resources Rank:
Northwestern: 14th Michigan: 31st</p>
<p>Alumni Giving % and Rank:
Northwestern: 29% (29th) Michigan: 15% (105th)</p>
<p>Peer Assessment:
Northwestern: 4.4 Michigan: 4.5</p>
<p>The only area where Michigan has an edge is in the Peer Assessment and many might argue that this is due to the large graduate programs at Michigan. So, if anything, these numbers show Northwestern to be the superior school academically. The major caveat is that Michigan might provide a better overall undergraduate experience as its size affords a broader range of possible majors, the sports teams are consistently competitive and fun to watch and Ann Arbor is likely to be more socially active than Evanston. But on the numbers, NU has the edge and I don't think it is even that close. If you are out-of-state, go to NU. If you are in-state for Michigan, it's definitely closer because of the cost differential, but if one can afford it, Northwestern is still my recommendation. </p>
<p>P.S. I didn't attend either Northwestern or Michigan and have no family or special ties to either school.</p>
<p>I have not attended either school.</p>
<p>The stronger department does not matter nearly as much during your undergraduate experience, particularly when both departments are still highly regarded. I strongly urge the OP to attend a top-flight grad program, but for undergrad, all that matters is that the faculty is strong and he will get opportunities to research. And the above statistics mean nothing when it comes to department reputation, so I'm not sure what the point was.</p>
<p>There are lots of grad students right now (and lots of PhDs, too) who are wishing they had spent less on their undergrad. If you're certain you will not need a grad degree, fine, undergrad matters more, but for a chem major that isn't likely.</p>
<p>Really - how much money do you want to be in the hole? The COA for Mich is about $21K for instate. Northwestern is over $46K. That adds up to about 100K over undergrad. Figure grad school as (unfunded) about 100K-150K.</p>
<p>Seriously. Do the math. Who in his right mind would go to Northwestern?
BTW, the undergrad alone would be about $1000 a month on Stafford loans. Add the grad school and you're at about $2200 (compounded interest). You can hope for funding, but even at that, you'll still be paying $1000 a month. Since the job market is never very secure - why do that to yourself?</p>
<p>Thanks for everyone who posted their opinions, it was nice to receive so much feedback. As much as I loved Northwestern's campus when I visited it, I was always leaning more toward Michigan even if only because of the closeness and price difference. Actually I really love Michigan as a school itself and I think I will be very well fit there. I realize that it wouldn't make sense to waste so much more money to go to a slightly better school, if that, so unless Northwestern decides for some reason to give me a bunch of money that's probably where I'll end up next year and I'm totally happy with that. Also to some of the posters who empathized rankings, I just wanted to say that you can't look at everything so objectively and narrow everything down to numbers, there's a lot more to it than that. Also I'm pretty sure that it's not so much the school you attend that matters as much as it is your character and motivation, so you guys really shouldn't make such a big deal about it, although it is a huge part of your future. I think Michigan is really an amazing bargain for me because I'm in-state, so I plan to take advantage of it, especially since I definitely want to go to grad school and I'd rather save up the money for that. Thanks again to everyone who commented and good luck to you if you’re in midst of applying/waiting too.</p>
<p>Again, it should be noted that average indebtedness at Northwestern is $18,362 for 46% of students, and $22,312 for 42% of Michigan grads. So while Northwestern has a higher percentage of students with debt, Michigan has a higher average debt amount…….</p>
<p>So, despite what many are saying about Northwestern being so much more expensive than Michigan, the actual numbers speak for themselves.... Even if most of the people are OOS, unless they constitute 42% of the school, Michigan is NOT always a cheaper choice for high school students.</p>
<p>"The CC world is loaded with Michigan boosters"</p>
<p>-How true this is.....</p>
<p>k&s, I disagree with the notion that students from one elite university can be scrutinized more than students from another elite university. When an undergrad is shooting for the top, he/she is going to be scrutinized no matter which elite university they attended. But it's not like there are any mysteries here. Employers and graduate schools will always look at GPA, recs, prior work experience (if applicable), essays (in the case of undergrads applying to graduate schools) and standardized test scores (also in the case of undergrads applying to graduate schools). Finally, in most instances, one must prove to be presentable and articulate in an interview. I agree that the name of a university matters a great deal, but once a student attends a top university, it's performance that determines success, not the statistical differences that you posted above. For some reason, many people in this forum seem to think that attending a mega-selective school will somehow absolve one from have to prove himself. That is almost never the case. </p>
<p>Hawkette, you are using the USNWR forumla as if it were 100% accurate and actually measures quality of education. Most people don't look at universities that way. But even if it were so, most of the statistical differences can be directly attributed to the size and affiliation of those two institutions, not to their quality or reputation. Furthermore, I am not sure what you mean by "Michigan booster". I personally always approach all universities, Michigan included, even handedly. I do not give special preference to one school over another unless it is warranted.</p>
<p>It's pretty clear why Berkeley and UCLA are prominent (2 most prominent metro areas in a state bigger and richer than 98 % of the countries). Also easy to see why UVa is prominent--Thomas Jefferson etc.</p>
<p>But why does the U of Michigan somehow stick out from all the other state universities? Why does it smoke Indiana U., U of Iowa, Penn State, Florida, LSU, U of Washington, etc.? Why is it that nearly every country on the planet would love to have a school that good? I live 20 minutes from Ann Arbor, and I can barely cope with the quirk of fate that has put me and my daughters in such proximity to a world-class university. This is the Rust Belt, you know, so what the hell is a great university doing right down the road?</p>
<p>"I live 20 minutes from Ann Arbor, and I can barely cope with the quirk of fate that has put me and my daughters in such proximity to a world-class university. This is the Rust Belt, you know, so what the hell is a great university doing right down the road?"</p>
<p>I'm sure people in Dryden, New York (15 minutes away from ithaca) are saying the same thing. Same applies to a few smaller towns near Dartmouth, NH.</p>
<p>Dartmouth, NH? That must be like Northwestern University, Illinois......</p>
<p>They are talking about great schools in the middle of almost nowhere. NU isn't in that category.</p>
<p>Upon thoroughly analyzing the sentences, Sam Lee prevailed with the correct interpretation. Superior work.</p>
<p>"They are talking about great schools in the middle of almost nowhere. NU isn't in that category."</p>
<p>I know what they are talking about. I just have never heard of "Dartmouth, NH"...... But thanks Sam for being captain obvious..... Sigh, sarcasm is never funny when you have to explain it to people.... :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Hanover, NH.</p>
<p>kk,</p>
<p>Sorry to assume. I thought Dartmouth is a towname too.</p>
<p>Northwestern/Northeastern. Now Dartmouth College/Dartmouth NH. Middlebury is in Miiddlebury. Ithaca is in Ithaca. Amherst is in Amherst. Wellesley is in Wellesley. I really like how Colgate U. is in Hamilton, and Hamilton College is in a town with some other name. Wake Forest USED to be in Wake Forest. There is a Dartmouth, Massachusetts...that has nothing to do with Dartmouth College. Maybe the 11th best team in the Big 10, Northwestern, should move there. That would clear things up.</p>
<p>Imagine if your name was Williams, and you were on the basketball team at Williams College. You'd have a tough time figuring out which was the front of your uniform shirt.</p>
<p>Alexandre - I don't really disagree with what you had written, however, it would be a bit misleading to think that certain prospective employers don't use school selectivity as the one of the initial parameters in looking at a candidate.</p>
<p>While not as big of a factor as when you get to the professional degree level (a Northwestern law degree as opposed to a UoI law degree) - a person with a degree from Duke, for example, may get a bit more slack than someone with a degree from UVA.</p>
<p>I guess I should have replaced the comma with 'in'. </p>
<p>"Hamilton College is in a town with some other name"</p>
<p>clinton. </p>
<p>"it would be a bit misleading to think that certain prospective employers don't use school selectivity as the one of the initial parameters in looking at a candidate."
this is very true, however there won't be much of a difference (if any difference at all) between UMich and Northwestern. The peer rankings of these schools shows this a bit.</p>
<p>"this is very true, however there won't be much of a difference (if any difference at all) between UMich and Northwestern. The peer rankings of these schools shows this a bit."</p>
<p>Peer assessment rankings and selectivity of the student body are totally different factors.</p>
<p>I think y'all are putting WAY too much stock in the minor differences in ranking between Michigan/NU and UNC/Duke. Something like Michigan State/NU or NC State/Duke there would be significant differences.</p>