<p>cellardweller…So do you claim that full pay students are indeed paying for the tuition of need based students? I do not believe the top universities in this country are dependant on full pay foreign born students when we have plenty of qualified full pay students here in our own country. I do believe that colleges below the top universities as well as state schools are benefitting by admitting full pay foreigners because it is less likely that state schools would be able to get enough full pay out of state students who in effect are paying top college tuition prices. Like I said earlier I have no stats and you did post some…do you have any links?</p>
<p>It’s both confusing and counterproductive to lump all situations under the same category when different schools have been approaching this same issue differently. The few very top, well funded universities are both need blind to internationals and promise to meet full need, thus the international students they choose to admit can attend at no cost to their family if their financial circumstance qualifies them for the institutional aid. Those types of students are almost always internationally recognized for their achievements, and admitted to U.S. universities under highly selective circumstances. Although a small percentage of them are Asian, they overall come from all over the world.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it is pointed out by many sources that in the current economy, many less well funded universities, including highly regarded state publics, are admitting full pay internationals to compensate for their ever dwindling federal and tax payer support in the current economy. Different scenarios, different policies.</p>
<p>momma-three,</p>
<p>Financial statements are very easily found on the internet. Here’s one from University of Chicago:
<a href=“http://finserv.uchicago.edu/pdf/University%20of%20Chicago%20Report.pdf[/url]”>http://finserv.uchicago.edu/pdf/University%20of%20Chicago%20Report.pdf</a></p>
<p>Tuition represents about 20% of the revenue while private gifts (a.k.a. your most hyped-about alumni donations), grants, and contracts represents less than 5% of the revenue. Alumni are way less generous to their alma mater than you think. The largest revenue stream comes from its medical center but most of that would have to offset the high costs associated with the medical care. Endowment payout, even though significant, is still smaller than tuition. Keep in mind that University of Chicago has a top-15, if not top-10, endowment and therefore is no way representative of most other American colleges. So the endowment payout would have to be A LOT LESS in most other schools and tuition would have to play a much larger role in those schools. This was shown in the USC example above and USC is still a lot more well-off than most schools. </p>
<p>In fact, from the financial management standpoint, it totally makes sense to use tuition as the primary basis to manage student aids, especially when your other sources of income are not significant enough and/or not reliable, which is true for most schools. The two go hand in hand - you want to pay for your short-term obligations (student aid) with the most reliable source of income from the normal course of business (tuition). Heavy dependence on endowment payout is not a norm but a luxury of only the few wealthiest colleges. But this practice is risky even to these few wealthiest schools. So when the market took a big hit couple years ago, Harvard and Yale had to cease certain programs or even laid off staff because their operating expense depended too much on endowment interests.</p>
<p>momma-three,</p>
<p>By the way, I found your blanket characterization of Chinese American kids pretty offensive. If they are all robots like you mentioned, the top schools wouldn’t have admitted so many of them at the first place. They wouldn’t be so well-represented in Intel or IMO if they are so deficient in creativity and orginality. You should realize that you have been very opinionated about finances of colleges when you never read financial statements and you had to ask a poster where to find USC financial statement. That should tell you something: maybe many things aren’t really what you’ve been thinking.</p>
<p>Wow, momma-three, I don’t know what Asian kids you have been observing, but my two HS sons hang around mainly with Asians (primarily a function of the heavily Asian demographics of the magnet program my sons attend) and they (and I) find these kids as full of energy, life, and school engagement as any other kids. Frankly, they are a joy to be around. I also coach a 12th grade rec league basketball team with a number of Asian kids, which doesn’t do much, frankly, for wins and losses, but we have a lot of fun (and our basketball team has more Intel Semifinalists than a number of states). Anyway, please reconsider your tired old stereotypes; they don’t fit anymore.</p>
<p>As stated earlier, if Chinese families are wondering what they could do differently to have a better understanding of what American Universities are interested in than it is important that they attempt to assimilate into American culture. I understand that both parents are working in Chinese homes, but it is the reality in most American homes. After work and on the weekends most of the Chinese families that I know are invoved in very busy schedules with their children all weekend long. Most of the activities include Chinese school either on a Saturday or Sunday followed by music lessons, kumon, and other private lessons. The children work extremely hard and are very academically talented but they are missing that “something” that is prohibiting them from gaining acceptance to the schools that they have the stats for. </p>
<p>Many of you will argue that what I am saying is simply not true but if you are constantly going to question why bright, talented and often gifted kids are not getting into the schools they are applying to than maybe it is time to look at what is causing the problem. It is easy to say that what I am saying is insulting but it is not insulting if there is a genuine interest in understanding how Americans see the problem that you are speaking about. Most Americans really admire the Chinese work ethic and those that don’t simply do not understand your culture.</p>
<p>Of course parents not volunteering or donating to school causes is not going to keep little John out of top X University but what is keeping little John out is that he looks just like every other kid who has spent years at Chinese school, Kumon, violin, piano, and other private lessons. When little Johns summers are one academic camp after another he is missing something on his applications. Are they great students with great GPAs and SAT scores? …Yes. Do these kids all look similar when they are applying to college…YES. Chinese students and their parents have been asking the question for a long time now.
If there is no real interest in understanding why these kids are being turned down for what appears in their mind to be a less qualified kid than this question will be asked for another decade or possibly another two generations until Chinese children born here start to have children of their own, and choose to assimilate into American culture. Just look to other immigrants to America and you will see how opportunities did not come to them until they did assimilate. The difference with Chinese families are that they have what most other groups did not have and that is an unquenchable desire to learn and a work ethic that is unstoppable. The reason for this stems from what Chinese families experinced back home with only the best and brightest having the opportunity to attend college. </p>
<p>Although the work ethic is admirable there is still the missing piece which might be attributed to Chinese kids living in their parents very guided and secured world in which they do not mix with other American kids. As a result when it comes time for little John to get involved in new and interesting things he is often stuck in what his parents believe are the important extra curriculars. Rather than emerging into a young adult who is creating his own future he is guided every step of the way into the very rigid role that his parents have set forth. I understand that his parents are only doing what they believe will is in his best interest to succeed but they are doing this under the presumption that the educational system is the same in the United States as it is in China.
We do not have a yearly test which is the end all and be all to college entrance. Our SAT exams are administered almost every month. We value creativity almost as much as academic excellence and in some professions we value it more. Here in America we understand that children are different and they are meant to follow their individual paths with some doing better financially than others. There is alot to learn but still the debate continues as to why the Chinese kid with high stats is not gaining admission to his or her top choice school.</p>
<p>If there is a problem and people have attempted to offer suggestions it might be worth listening and understanding instead of making the assumption that it is an attack. </p>
<p>I also believe that most foreigners who are full pay will never be alumni donors to their universities. It is the belief of Chinese people that if they paid the respective fee for something they do not owe anything moving forward. Please correct me if I am wrong.</p>
<p>Tomservo…I agree that foreign tuition dollars are subsidizing instate tuition costs at state Universities. It is the same reason that so many state Us try to make their school very attractive to out of state kids. The majority of state Universities are dealing with the reality of tough economic times. This holds true with many non descript private universities that are losing kids to their instate schools.</p>
<p>
Most Americans don’t donate to their schools either; look up US News data. % of alums that donate are mostly in the teens for lots of schools. Most of those that donate are not dropping millions, probably more like couple hundreds or thousands at most. Big deal. </p>
<p>So far, you have no data to back up any of your claim, if you haven’t noticed. Next thing I know, you may be worrying that poorer kids are less likely to donate in the future. Oh, while you are at it, music/arts schools are less likely to produce big time donors; lets get rid of them!</p>
<p>Sam,
I gave you some honest feedback and you are claiming once again that what I am saying is false. Why don’t you explain to us what the problem is? Why are so many Chinese kids with great stats not getting into the top tier schools they are applying to? What do you see as the problem?</p>
<p>Chinese families are not invested in their childs school. They are not involved and they do not seek out friendships with American born families…Is this a false statement or is it generally true?</p>
<p>Chinese children are all involved in similar academic and extra curricula activities…true or false?</p>
<p>Chinese children are often consumed with parent chosen activities on the weekends? True or false?</p>
<p>Chinese people are wondering why they are being passed over for admission to some of Americas top Universities? True or false? </p>
<p>Interesting thread but it will go on for decades because of the failure to understand that things are not the same here as they are in China. Sure, every Chinese person will say that academics here is far behind that of China but yet American schools are still being sought after. Could it be because our education system is for forgiving and we offer options? Please stop with your request for stats. You can feel free to post what you want but there are some things that are clear and do not need stats. All I have to do is ask every Chinese parent in my community or whom I know personally where their child attends Chinese school, or which Kumon they go to, or who provides them with their private lessons for writing? Are you denying that most every Chinese child who is coming from an educated home is not doing music lessons, kumon, English classes, and Chinese school. I can’t name one kid. Do I have stats?.. NO. Please show the stats that say I am wrong. Disprove the fact that Chinese kids are leading a very ordered life filled with prescribed activiites fitting the mold of typical.</p>
<p>FYI - one source on alumni donation rates … </p>
<p>[University</a> Planning & Analysis](<a href=“http://www2.acs.ncsu.edu/upa/peers/current/research_intensive/alumgiv.htm]University”>http://www2.acs.ncsu.edu/upa/peers/current/research_intensive/alumgiv.htm) </p>
<p>… generally in the 30-40% range for top tier schools.</p>
<p>^But for most schools, it’s nowhere near that. We are talking about international students in the US in general and that means US colleges in general, not just the top tier schools that represent less than 1% of all colleges.</p>
<p>
I don’t have the collective data to claim one way or another, do you?</p>
<p>
I don’t have the collective data, do you?</p>
<p>
Really? Do you have data/sample stats to back that up? All I know is the term “helicopter parents” is a very American term and doesn’t have any Chinese root. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>
I am sure plenty of American white kids with top credentials are wondering about the same thing each year. Plenty of Chinese kids got into the top schoools. That I know for certain.</p>
<p>Don’t throw the ball to my court. You are the one that makes characterization and claims one after another. The burden of proof is on you, not me.</p>
<p>Even at schools with high rates of alumni donations, the percentage of total revenue represented by gifts from alumni is relatively small. Tuition and endowment revenue is always greater. </p>
<p>As an example, even at USC which has a formidable alumni organization with the second highest alumni contribution rate in the country, gifts represent less than 13% of total annual revenue as compared to nearly 40% for tuition. Of student tuition revenue, 30% is allocated to financial aid, overwhelmingly for US students. The vast majority of international students are full pay and their tuition does help subsidize the US students. </p>
<p>Many of the top US universities and LACs have active recruiting efforts in China through agents. Others like Grinnell, Williams, Franklin & Marshall send their admission deans on recruiting trips to China. </p>
<p><a href=“From China, More Students Pursue Dream of American Education - The New York Times”>From China, More Students Pursue Dream of American Education - The New York Times;
<p>Cashing in on the demand for a US college education by upper middle class Chinese families has become big business up and down the ranks of US public and private colleges. It is estimated that international students contribute $21 billion to the US economy. </p>
<p>[A</a> Surge in Graduate Students from China Brings Big Benefits | Think Tank | Big Think](<a href=“Ideas Are Immortal - Big Think”>Ideas Are Immortal - Big Think)</p>
<p>Over two-thirds of surveyed colleges now have specific programs targeted at internationals with a primary focus on China. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.iie.org/en/Who-We-Are/News-and-Events/Press-Center/Press-Releases/2011/~/media/Files/Corporate/Open-Doors/Special-Reports/Fall-Survey-Intl-Students-2011.ashx[/url]”>http://www.iie.org/en/Who-We-Are/News-and-Events/Press-Center/Press-Releases/2011/~/media/Files/Corporate/Open-Doors/Special-Reports/Fall-Survey-Intl-Students-2011.ashx</a></p>
<p>Last year around 160,000 Chinese nationals were studying in the US, with around 1 of 4 internationals from China. The number will approach 200,000 this year. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.iie.org/Research-and-Publications/Open-Doors/Data/Fact-Sheets-by-Country/~/media/Files/Corporate/Open-Doors/Fact-Sheets-2011/Country/China%20Fact%20Sheet%20-%20Open%20Doors%202011.ashx[/url]”>http://www.iie.org/Research-and-Publications/Open-Doors/Data/Fact-Sheets-by-Country/~/media/Files/Corporate/Open-Doors/Fact-Sheets-2011/Country/China%20Fact%20Sheet%20-%20Open%20Doors%202011.ashx</a></p>
<p>"I also believe that most foreigners who are full pay will never be alumni donors to their universities. It is the belief of Chinese people that if they paid the respective fee for something they do not owe anything moving forward. Please correct me if I am wrong. "</p>
<p>momma-three, you are quite wrong. I can list you a couple of major donor who are foreign students and have contributed big time. Check out these links and I hope after reading these article you will change your mind about foreign students. </p>
<p>Mr. Wu give Princeton $100 million!!!
[Hong</a> Kong Builder, Graduate of Princeton, Gives It $100 Million - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/1995/11/10/nyregion/hong-kong-builder-graduate-of-princeton-gives-it-100-million.html]Hong”>Hong Kong Builder, Graduate of Princeton, Gives It $100 Million - The New York Times)</p>
<p>Mr Fu give $26 million to Columbia to set up the Fu School of Engineering.
[Columbia</a> School of Engineering and Applied Science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_School_of_Engineering_and_Applied_Science]Columbia”>Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>This Chinese guy gives Yale $8,888,888!!!</p>
<p>[Lei</a> Zhang’s Donation To Yale University, Chinese Reactions – chinaSMACK](<a href=“http://www.chinasmack.com/2010/stories/lei-zhang-donation-yale-university-chinese-reactions.html]Lei”>http://www.chinasmack.com/2010/stories/lei-zhang-donation-yale-university-chinese-reactions.html)</p>
<p>These are just a few Chinese donor who also happened to be foreign students. They are not U.S. born Chinese. Also, if you walk in the new campus center of Wellesley College you will be surprised to know who donoted big money to build the Lulu Wang Center. </p>
<p>[Lulu</a> Chow Wang Campus Center](<a href=“http://www.wellesley.edu/WangCampusCenter/]Lulu”>http://www.wellesley.edu/WangCampusCenter/)</p>
<p>momma-three, check this one out too. </p>
<p>[Recollections</a> of Regenstein inspired Mansuetos library gift](<a href=“http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/080515/mansuetos.shtml]Recollections”>Recollections of Regenstein inspired Mansuetos� library gift)</p>
<p>I never asked to a poster the link because I could’nt find it. The poster was posting info that could be from his proverbial ----- as you so kindly pointed out regarding my infomation. </p>
<p>If you are insulted about the way Chinese students are being characterized than how can you explain that most Chinese children of educated families are all involved in the same activities through elementary, middle and highschool. Yes of course Chinese children are involved in the the many academic competitions that you have mentioned and that is again a function of the work hard mentality that sets Chinese students apart at face value. That does not ignore the fact that there are more Chinese students than not that who are coming from educated families that are involved with a very prescribed list of activities. I have close to 100 Chinese clients who send their children to the very same ECs. Is that infor in a study?.. Of course not but it is real and I see it and hear it on a daily basis. These very same parents are spending the entire weekend every weekend in a dizzying spin of running from one activity to another…exhausting just hearing about it but I see it too. I have not disclosed the business that I own and operate but most of my clients are Chinese and many of my clients have been with me for years. I respect most of them a great deal however what I have said here is the same thing that we have discussed over many a cordial meeting. It is a problem that seems to perpetuate because most of the parents only speak to other Chinese parents and the only thing they are aware of is what other Chinese kids are doing and as a result they all do the same thing. Do I have stats to prove it…no…just as I have said but who needs stats when the population of people I am speaking about are known to be educated…live in suburbia…own their own homes…born in China…and there are at least 100 families from several different townships that I have known. I could probably publish my own study based on the sample group I am referring to. I also understand that my familiarity with the culture is not something that most Americans know first hand. I feel fortunate to have the friendship of many of my clients and the close aquaintance of so many people in a culture that is so dedicated to a common denominator…their children and their childrens education. With that comes some observations as well and I have mentioned them. You may not like the portrayal but it is what is noted in the large sample of the families that I know. </p>
<p>As far as alumni donors go…again I posted no stats but from my experience with the parents that I know both from my community and through my business I can be certain of one thing and that is the belief that when you have paid for something you owe nothing more. The Universities are dependant on alumni donations for things like need based aid for students who can not afford an education at a particular college. The Chinese thinking is not open to the idea of giving to American people when there parents have not worked hard to provide it for their own children…Again I will ask you if I am wrong. These are conversations that I have been involved in for years through my work connections, and social situations as a result of my bussiness. I said earlier that this may be a reason that foreign students Chinese students are seeing an edge right now as full pay over American full pay. </p>
<p>There are two possiblilies that should be explored:
- Are too many Chinese American students applying to the top schools in America with very similar ECs in addition to great SAT scores and top GPAs?</p>
<ol>
<li>Are top colleges realizing that Chinese American students (and of course there are always exceptions) will graduate and for the most part leave their college without ever making a donation? You assume I am speaking out of my — but if you examine the belief system of Chinese people who come to this country you should be able to admit that what I am saying is correct. </li>
</ol>
<p>The argument here was not meant to stir up feelings that I am attacking Chinese Americans, however, if you take what I am saying as a negative rather than a cultural difference than you are negating the fact that cultural differences exist and that makes you look like you would rather hide the difference rather than accept it and understand where there may be ways to change things to make things easier for the children who are experiencing some disappointing results in admissions.</p>
<p>I am not taking away from anyone who has donated but it is also apparent that donators listed have donated to help other Chinese students or Chinese foreigners…you are helping to make my point.</p>
<p>@Sam Lee and others,</p>
<p>When one has already dug a well twice or three times as deep as the norm and there is still no water, it stands to reason that it is unlikely that you will find water going further.</p>
<p>Momma-three:</p>
<p>Your ignorance and prejudice are astounding:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That is ridiculous.</p>
<p>In regards to Wu’s gift to Princeton; </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>As far as Zhang’s gift to Yale:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>We have already debunked that claim. Financial aid budgets are overwhelmingly funded from student tuition especially from full pay students, a significant portion of which are internationals. Gifts from alumni play a minor role for most large universities. </p>
<p>You know obviously nothing about philanthropy in Asia — in particular, the notions of compassion and service in Buddhism, benevolence in Confucianism, and the relatedness of all in Taoism. </p>
<p>While giving money to one’s alma-mater may not be common in countries like China where education is state funded, many internationals educated in the US (including Chinese) do give back to their US colleges. Most universities have developed aggressive fund raising efforts targeted at their international alumni; some like UCLA raising millions annually from their Asian alumni. </p>
<p>Overall, it is indisputable that China currently contributes billions of dollars annually to the US higher education system, especially valuable at a time of decreased budgets, lower endowment returns and reduced alumni giving. </p>
<p>As far as your criticism of the educational backgrounds of Chinese applicants, especially parental involvement, how is that negative?</p>
<p>By current international standards, Chinese high school students are the top performers in the world, far ahead of their US counterparts. They blow away the competition in math, science and language comprehension. Most speak at least one foreign language, something sorely lacking in the US. So what if playing the piano or the violin is a common EC among Chinese applicants? It takes thousands of hours to become proficient and it certainly requires tremendous dedication. How is playing baseball a better indicator of future achievement? </p>
<p>The fact is right now, Chinese applicants are extraordinarily successful being admitted to the most selective colleges in the US including HYPSM. The MIT, Harvard, Caltech and Princeton math teams are dominated by Chinese nationals who swiped all the top awards at the Math Olympiads. I believe we should admire their success rather than try to disparage it. Without the continuous supply of Chinese (and other international) engineers and scientists to this country, technological innovation would grind to a halt. Combining the Chinese work ethic with American ingenuity is apparently a winning formula judging from the success of many returning alumni, many of which are perfectly happy to give back to their alma-maters in the US. With China having the fastest increase in the number of billionaires, many of which are trained in the US, contributions to US colleges from Chinese philanthropists are bound to rise dramatically over the coming decades. The Wu’s, Fu’s and Zhang’s highlighted earlier are just the tip of the iceberg.</p>