<p>Byerely, don' t you think it's a logical fallacy to imply that Harvard is a better undergraduate experience than Yale or Princeton because more admitted students choose to attend there--before they have actually experienced it? </p>
<p>The only way to possibly know which is "better" is for a person to spend 4 years as an undergrad at both. The fact that more students choose Harvard when they have Yale/Princeton as options means, if anything, that the perceived quality of undergraduate education is quite high. It doesn't say anything about what it is like in actuality. </p>
<p>I'm not offering any conclusion, just objecting to your argument.</p>
<p>I agree with you, conticuere, on that one. The number of cross-admits choosing Harvard points, I think, merely to the university's perceived status but says very little about the quality of the undergraduate experience.</p>
<p>I think it is as reasonable to assume that the nation's top students - as represented by those gaining multiple admissions to the nation's top schools - have probably researched their undergraduate options fairly closely. </p>
<p>That they overwhelmingly choose Harvard is a matter of some significance.</p>
<p>It is absurd, IMHO, to suggest as some here do, that all these top students, over the years, are shallow people who know little about the schools in question but dimly choose the school with the most (shudder) "prestige." </p>
<p>And "prestige" the anti-Harvardians imply, has no connection with academic quality, student quality, quality of facilities, attractiveness of setting or other factors that might arguably be deemed important in choosing a college. </p>
<p>Well what then, pray tell, is this apparently negative quality known as "prestige"? Do Stanford, Yale, MIT and Princeton possess it in any significant measure? Is "prestige" only a negative when associated with Harvard, but a positive characteristic of other schools the anti-Harvardians may prefer?</p>
<p>Hmmmmm . . . while I would prefer to be wrong on this, after having previously responded to his initial post as if he were sincerely trying to make up his mind about where to go to school, there's something about what the OP, Matt, has - and hasn't - said in his posts so far that now gives me pause as to whether he is in fact a cross-admit or whether, instead, he is simply trying to stir up a little mischief. </p>
<p>It just strikes me as a little odd - now that I think about it - that Matt claims to be trying to make up his mind between these two schools but hasn't asked a single specific question about Harvard, hasn't said anything about why he applied there, hasn't said anything about any specific concerns or reservations that he may have, etc., etc., etc.</p>
<p>I didn't say prestige is bad. Your argument continues to go around in circles. I want you to respond to this question, and this question only: How does the fact that more students chose Harvard over Yale/Princeton mean that Harvard is a better undergraduate institution, when the admitted students chosing that school have not yet attended it, thus have no experience of any of the three schools as of yet? </p>
<p>You're committing horrific fallacies of logic, Byerly. There are many possible variables involved here--maybe Cambridge is the deciding factor, maybe financial aid, maybe the simple fact that most students in the past have chosen Harvard, so it seems to be the "right thing to do?" </p>
<p>Knowing whether one college has a better undergraduate experience is knowledge grounded in exactly that--experience. It is an a posteriori observation. It is a deeply personal experience as well; I know quite a few students who love Harvard but also many who hate it, as well as quite a few students who love Princeton while many hate it. Who knows, maybe the dissatisfied Harvard student would have been happier at Princeton? There's almost no way of knowing--trying to qualify Harvard as better simply by its yield rate speaks nothing about the actual experience of life at the university.</p>
<p>If over the years, the reputation of BMW as a fine motor vehicle fades based on the accumulated experience of those who own and operate them, then the "perceived prestige" of the brand will suffer, and sales will fall.</p>
<p>So is it with colleges.</p>
<p>Understand: we are talking about the ability to predict future value based on past value. Just stop and think: no college applicant has the ability to compare four or five colleges based on having attended each and every one of them for four years, does he? Of course not.</p>
<p>Likewise, as others have pointed out, it is not possible to entirely understand what four years at a school will be like based on a tour of the place in August or a whirlwind visit at Bulldog Days; indeed such experiences can be misleading as often as not.</p>
<p>No. </p>
<p>With colleges - as with automobiles - those deciding whether it is wise to make a sizeable investment must observe the actions of others similarly situated whose experiences contribute the reputation of the brand. In short they look to "perceived prestige." Does the market price and resale value remain high, or does it not? No "horrific fallacies of logic" here, I don't believe.</p>
<p>That said, if school "A" gives you a big scholarship and school "B" doesn't, then you might consider school "A" more seriously. Mercedes has almost as much "perceived prestige" as BMW these days, so that if the Mercedes dealer gives me a 50% discount, I'd have no trouble dropping down a notch.</p>
<p>While I agree with Byerly that the decisions made by previous decision-makers who were in the same position is relevant in this context, I don't think that I would give that data the same weight that he would. As I suggested previously, I think that framing the question in this way - which is "better," which is "number one" - is not very helpful at all. </p>
<p>Suppose that you had the opportunity to live abroad for a year, and that you could spend that year in either France or Italy. Might the decisions made by previous travellers be relevant in making up your own mind about where to live? Sure. Would they deserve a great deal of weight in making the decision about what to do with your own life? Probably not. </p>
<p>Is France or Italy "better"? Which is "number one"? Such questions seem unhelpful at best and ridiculous at worst. So too here.</p>
<p>The question was "which college is #1 at the undergraduate level."</p>
<p>He then lays out a few of the standard cliche negatives you hear about Harvard and, on that basis, he concludes that it is not "#1".</p>
<p>With all due respect, what I have done is suggest that for some years now, top applicants (one can safely assume) have heard those standard cliche negatives - and perhaps others as well. And yet they persist in preferring Harvard by an overwhelming margin.</p>
<p>Perhaps all those folks were dupes, year after year, and the OP - now that he has "been fortunate enough to get into Yale" - has stumbled upon some new and unique insight and rushed over to the Harvard page to break the news .... but somehow I don't think so.</p>
<p>He then lays out a few of the standard cliche negatives you hear about Harvard and, on that basis, he concludes that it is not "#1".</p>
<p>I never concluded that Harvard is not number one. I merely voiced my opinion that it might not be the place to go as an undergrad if one desires a great deal of contact with profs. I said, It sounds to me that Harvard is not the place to go as an undergrad. But I am asking the question because I know I do not have the answer.</p>
<p>It just strikes me as a little odd - now that I think about it - that Matt claims to be trying to make up his mind between these two schools but hasn't asked a single specific question about Harvard, hasn't said anything about why he applied there, hasn't said anything about any specific concerns or reservations that he may have, etc., etc., etc.</p>
<p>Epistrophy, my question about Harvard is whether or not it is adequately undergraduate focused. That is also my reservation and concern. Did you read my first post? </p>
<p>Mercedes has almost as much "perceived prestige" as BMW these days, so that if the Mercedes dealer gives me a 50% discount, I'd have no trouble dropping down a notch.</p>
<p>People here are obsessed with prestige. It is pretty pathetic.</p>
<p>Your views would carry more force if they did not seem merely to reflect the fairly recent realities in your own life: ie, getting into one school after having been waitlisted at others you ranked higher prior to April 1.</p>
<p>Yale and Harvard have always been my top choices though for some time I considered Duke as well. (I was accepted there too.) Why do you think I was previously interested in other schools?</p>
<p>Among the schools to which you were admitted (Yale, Columbia, Duke) Yale is clearly the one with the most "perceived prestige" - so you have made the same choice most similarly situated applicants would make.</p>
<p>You are mistaken. Columbia was never one of my schools. And on the basis of your argument, shouldn't I choose Harvard which according to you has even greater prestige?</p>
<p>You should choose what make you happy - if being happy is what you value most highly and you think you know where its happiest. Are you the one whose friends, cousins or whatever turned down Yale, Dartmouth and William for Notre Dame to be happy? From your earlier posts, I gather that "perceived prestige" is virtually a negative quality (at least in Harvard's case) - although I'd say Yale is perceived to have a modicum of it.</p>
<p>No, I don't think so. I mean, my dad turned down Harvard to go to Notre Dame and a few other members of my family have made similiar decisions to attend ND but no cousins. (I'm the oldest.) I think you might have me confused with someone else (but maybe not, I don't know).</p>
<p>And prestige is a positive for me (though a small one). I would love to attend Harvard; I just want to make sure I won't get pushed to the side there.</p>
<p>It is natural to fear that you might be a small fish in the pond at Harvard, but "everybody came from somewhere" as the saying goes, and if they admitted you they must think you have what it takes!</p>
<p>Trust them ... they probably know better than you do!</p>
<p>You are probably right there. And my (rather distant) cousin is still enjoying ND (I think). Sometimes I wish though that I wasn't the oldest in my immediate family so I could have someone to go on.</p>