Harvard Among the Ivies

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
1

<p>I cobbled these opinions together from various sources. They focus primarily on the undergraduate programs of the various Ivies. I think there is a ring of truth in them.</p>

<p>For undergraduate education:</p>

<p>Tier I - Yale, Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth;
Tier II - Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Cornell </p>

<p>Yale - Extraordinary academics (though skewed away from the hard sciences). Provides luminaries on the faculty combined with a stunning array of intellectual offerings (formal courses as well as unique extra-curriculars like Grand Strategy). Reigns supreme in the fine arts, offers great leadership and service opportunities. Greatest undergrad focus [tutoring, mentoring, residential college housing, funding for ECs] with the possible exception of Dartmouth. Market leading endowment performance has Yale rolling in dough. The brand name is second to only to one. It feels closer to the centers of American power than perhaps all the other top schools (Good Shepherd anyone?). Often rates rather low in "student happiness" surveys. Major issue - old New Haven, which is still depressing after all these years </p>

<p>Princeton - Phenomenal academics, probably the most balanced of the Ivies across all fields of study. World class in arts, humanities, social sciences, hard sciences AND engineering. Only Stanford can surpass Princeton among the elite private schools in this regard. Pound for pound it's the best academically for undergraduates of all the Ivies with the largest endowment for undergraduate academics and a pristine idyllic campus. Major issue - Old Nassau is elite and it FEELS elite --> Is Princeton too cultured & manicured? Does it simply have too much money?? </p>

<p>Brown - The place for independent students who are brave (or foolish enough) to design their own programs of study; very good academics especially in the humanities; new arts link with RISD may effectively place Brown in the same league as Yale; stellar and very self-selecting student body and lots of momentum because of strong University leadership. And then there's the aura of celebrity which hangs over the campus like a golden halo. Major issue - lack of research-heavy grad schools means Brown will increasingly NOT be perceived as a top school by rankings that favor engrg & medical focused universities (an issue also hurting Princeton). </p>

<p>Dartmouth - Weakest in a pure academic sense among the Ivies (due to its limited graduate programs), but still one of the very best in the nation for a classic liberal arts education. The focus on undergrads is rivaled perhaps only by Yale and the demanding rigor of its course work, especially in math, science and engineering is almost unparalleled among its peers (think more like MIT). Mentoring from senior faculty is reputedly the best in the Ivies, and lots of resources ($$$) are committed to the undergraduates and to undergraduate research. Does a fantastic job of creating a very strong bond among and with its students -- it really is a "tribe". Very self-selecting student body. Off-campus and international programs the best in the Ivies. Major issue - those long and cold and long and cold New England winters.</p>

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<p>Harvard - #1 brand. #1 endowment. And Harvard manages both aggressively. Overall, Harvard has more - more money, more Nobelists, more books, more museums, more labs, more of everything. The school is loaded with superstar faculty (Nobels, National Academy members, etc). Harvard College has the highest yield and one of the lowest admit rates; it may have more students that are really off the charts than any other school in America. The place is Institutional with a capital I. Major Issue - Harvard clearly favors its graduate schools, and the abandoned undergrads don't complain too much because they count themselves lucky to even be there. A low-level and pervasive unhappiness though can be sensed among many undergraduates, as most believe their peers are getting a better education and having more fun elsewhere.</p>

<p>Penn - Academically, great breadth across many disciplines. Unrivalled in undergrad business and nursing, top notch in arts and social sciences. Maybe the weakest among the research-oriented Ivy in the hard sciences. Increasingly prominent in humanities ECs (Kelly Writers House, Civics House, Humanities Forum, etc.) to counter pre-professional Wharton-itis. Lots of academic freedom and perhaps the most flexible after Brown; Penn works hard to ensure cross-disciplinary work. Students can take classes at all Penn's schools (except for Med), benefiting from what may be the second best group of graduate schools among the Ivies. Work hard, party hard ethos. Major Issue - Sheer size and "grittiness" mars the Ivy experience and an anemic job market in Philadelphia (no incentives to stay local unlike Harvard/Cambridge or Stanford/Palo Alto). </p>

<p>Columbia - Blessed with a long legacy and unrivalled NYC location. Any professor who wants to live in NYC most likely wants to teach at Columbia. That creates great resources for students. Unique Core Curriculum defines the academic experience, and Columbia is stellar in many areas. One of the very best in arts and social sciences, very strong in sciences too. Famously political and activist, though jobs on Wall Street seem to carry the day with students. Advising, facilities and access to popular courses draw chronic complaints from the students. Campus expansion may help, although there's never enough space in Manhattan. Major Issue - Does Columbia rely too much on the lure of NYC for students and faculty alike? </p>

<p>Cornell - Big Red!!! Awesome academics can't be touched in engineering and the hard sciences. Unrivalled and unique offerings (agriculture school, labor relations, hotel mgmt) within the Ivies. Don't pooh pooh the admit rate - Cornell is the biggest among the best and - more importantly - it has a slightly different mission that the other places, namely it's the land grant school for NY state. It's a major research center even for undergrads. Another idyllic - perhaps isolated - locale for college and the life of the mind. Student diversity varies tremendously between the undergraduate schools (there are seven). And the academic programs are very structured, (aka, rigid). Major issue - Immense academic pressure at a competitive place (read grind), and those bitter winters high above Cayuga's waters.</p>

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<p>WOW!!!!!! What a THIEF you are!!!!!! </p>

<p>You have the audacity to completely copy a post I made, essentially in its entirety may I add - and take credit for it. What a pathetic person you are!!!!! </p>

<p>If this was real life you'd be fired for plagiarism and then sued for stealing. </p>

<p>Since it's an Internet thread, I'll take this as a compliment for the research I have done and perspective that I have developed.</p>

3

<p>Each description seems to start out with generic superlatives peppered with some well-known facts about each school (obviously an attempt to make whatever comes next more credible), then degenerates into fairly arbitrary and nonsensical musings that eventually turn into complete B.S.</p>

<p>Maybe 20% reality, 50% tired and old stereotypes, and 30% outright falsehoods.</p>

<p>Needless to say, when you "cobble together" from sources, you are selectively picking those that suit your own preconceived notions about what each school is like. </p>

<p>Better to stick to the facts.</p>

4

<p>red&blue, I don't think you noticed the start of her post. She said "I have cobbled these opinions together from many sources", so she has not claimed them her own.</p>

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<p>Interesting post. It is, however, unfair to categorize the Ivy League schools into tiers-- and, if I had to do so, two of the schools listed as "Tier One" would be "Tier Three" schools in my opinion. Additionally, there are schools at Penn and Cornell which are considered to be the best in the world and, certainly, deserve much more respect than the second tier of a two tier system. I think that Harvard and Columbia can defend themselves-- when they are able to get off the floor from laughing so hard!</p>

6

<p>Whatever on thinks of Harvard in the past, applicants should know it is currently undergoing major changes. Curriculum, financial aid, calender etc. that will all have a major impact on undergraduate life. All hopefully for the better.</p>

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<p>Harvard's undergraduate education is not Tier II. To make such an assumption based on personal anecdotes is ridiculous.</p>

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<p>Why praise Yale for having residential colleges when Harvard has them too? Why not mention Harvard's superlative extracurricular activities - such as Crimson and Phillips Brooks House, two orchestras etc?</p>

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<p>I still don't understand the concept that Harvard "favors" the graduate schools and undergraduates are "abandoned". As if there is a single person named Harvard who divvies up the money and resources to different schools. Each school has its own dean, administration, faculty, and endowment and each school largely makes its own decisions about pretty much everything. The Law, Business, and Medical Schools are almost independent entities. The President spends a heck of a lot more time on the College than he/she does on these graduate schools - just read the headlines. Yes, Harvard College has to share the limelight with these other schools because they are so prominent, but is that necessary a bad thing? And how does it hurt the undergraduate education to have all the research opportunities, prominent invited speakers, etc. available at the graduate schools?</p>

<p>If you are talking about individual professors, yes, some will obviously care more about their research than teaching undergraduates. And some others will care about teaching. This is something that you see in research universities everywhere. It's disingenuous to suggest that other leading research universities are really any different, although I realize that they have to be able to claim that they are better than Harvard at SOMETHING.</p>

<p>You will have difficulty showing that the graduates of your "TIER 1" schools are any better educated than "TIER 2" schools by any measurable standards (logical thinking, critical writing, general knowledge, whatever). On the other hand, it's very easy to show that Harvard graduates fare much better than those of other schools in terms of placement. There are plenty of statistics to prove that.</p>

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<p>This post was originally in a thread re undergrad education among the Ivies. My tiering was based on those schools which see their primary missions as teaching undergrads. Yale and Princeton happen to have strong graduate programs (though smaller than the Tier II schools). </p>

<p>But Tier I orients their resources around undergrads (e.g., all Yale professors teach undergrads, etc.)</p>

<p>The same can not be said for the Tier II schools. That said, a student will get a fantastic education from any of these universities. It depends on what kind of institution a student wants to attend.</p>

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<p>"I still don't understand the concept that Harvard "favors" the graduate schools and undergraduates are "abandoned""</p>

<p>Neither do I, especially since I've been both a graduate and an undergraduate at Harvard, and there's no comparison -- the undergrads get the best the university has to offer. If I had to pick one, I'd choose my undergrad experience in a heartbeat.</p>

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<p>The thread seems to be an elaborate attempt, repeated over several forums, to claim that Dartmouth is better than Harvard. Both are fine colleges. Reasonable minds can differ about where to enroll, if admitted to both, but most students who are admitted to both end up attending Harvard College for their undergraduate degree. I won't comment on what aspect of the overall experience at each college leads to that choice among the students with the happy problem of having to choose between Dartmouth and Harvard, but I figure students who are in a position to choose don't make that choice rashly.</p>

13

<p>Any education that involves a class with a guest lecture on polar ecosystems by a Nobel laureate, discussions with the professor of said class over College-sponsored beef tenderloin and pasta about international travel and Japanese art, and character-building library study sessions with some of the most outstanding well-rounded peers one could ever meet is far from a Tier II education. I don't frequently like to respond to these posts, but as a Harvard student, I can tell you that I am more than happy to be at Harvard and nowhere else. The people, the diversity of perspective, and the intellectual passion present at Harvard make me appreciate the school every day.</p>