Nurse Anesthesia vs Pharmacy?

College Majors Science Majors
1

<p>Hello all! I've been reading about the controversy on pharmacy vs nurse anesthesia for quite a while but I still can't find the main points that I need...
I only ask and created this new thread because I have a school specifically specified for nursing and then onto a nurse anesthesia program around the area, and also a school that offers the PharmD degree.
The sad thing is that I can see myself doing both or either careers 10 years from now since they both very much interest me.</p>

<p>I'm a recent high school graduate and am just finishing my first fall semester at a local university because I am so undecided on what to do. (so i take pre reqs for cheaper here)</p>

<p>I understand that it takes 6 years to complete your PharmD degree and we have an accredited school for that. (Xavier University of Louisiana) And also a good nursing school with LSU Health and Sciences center for Nurse Anesthesia.
PharmD would take 6 years to complete while I heard that they're changing the Master's for nursing to a Doctorate degree really soon. So all in all,
Pharmacy = 6-7 years
Nurse anesthetist = 9+ years (due to 4 years for your bachelors, 1 year of Critical care experience, then 4 more years of schooling(doctorate))</p>

<p>So I ask for insights on both careers.
My worries rely in
1. Job opportunities and salaries within 20-30 years from now
2. Liability
3. Competitiveness
4. Work schedule
5. Also, which would be a better "two birds with one stone" kind of choice? As in would it be better if I went for pharmacy pre-reqs then could go to nursing if I decided to change my mind after without a hassle? Or going for nursing pre-reqs, then switching to pharmacy using their pre-reqs without much of a hassle?</p>

<p>I apologize in advance if I provided any wrong information above. Please feel free to correct this post if so. Once again, I enjoy learning BOTH careers and can see myself doing EITHER careers. Asking about the salaries 20 years from now only because I know that they're changing Nurse Anesthesia to a doctorate degree and have been hearing rumors about the pharmacy graduates overflowing.</p>

<p>Insights, comments, opinions please. Much is appreciated, thank you.</p>

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<p>Perhaps cover all your bases do a BSN with the prereqs for pharm school then go to pharm school. </p>

<p>Pharmacy is getting saturated in many of the urban areas so you may have to consider living in a rural area where there is less competition for jobs.</p>

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<p>Thank you sschoe2 on your insight. However, I see that PharmD programs require a great amount of chemistry and biology that is not covered in the bases for BSN. I’m only afraid of it taking too much of my time if I were to decide to switch over one or the other after getting so far ahead already. But thank you, every bit helps.</p>

<p>Keep it coming!</p>

4

<p>Shadow! Shadow, shadow some more… and oh, shadow. Do it in multiple disciplines of each profession as well, since pharmacy varies drastically depending on which setting you are working in. I cannot say the same for nurse anesthetist since I admittedly know nothing about it :)</p>

<p>For pharmacy, I would start by contacting the Director of Pharmacy of a hospital. At least when I shadowed, that’s who I got a hold of. It may take some digging for you to come up with contacts for shadowing anywhere, so be patient and don’t get discouraged because it will be worth it. You’ll probably be able to find shadowing for both careers in one hospital as well. Each state and institution has its own rules and regulations regarding shadowing, so there may be fields that you can’t shadow, period.</p>

<p>If you have a hard time getting a foot in the door, start volunteering at a hospital that has these careers even if the work is not directly related to them. Then you’ll have connections in the hospital that are willing to help you out.</p>

<p>Other areas of pharmacy beyond community and hospital/clinical: MTM, compounding, nuclear, industry, managed care, home care, insurance, research, academia, pretty much any specialty (would probably be associated with a hospital or clinic), etc.</p>

<p>The job market for pharmacists is getting worse because of the mass openings of new schools in the last decade or so, so that’s always something to consider. I don’t think it’s as bad as people make it out to be, but I’m just a first year student, so I’m not the most knowledgeable in those regards. From what I’ve gathered, it really varies depending on which part of the country you are in. Chicago, Texas and California are worse off since they have so many pharmacy schools.</p>

<p>Pharmacy can also be more than six years. The track I’m on is a minimum of 8 (BA + 4 years of PharmD) and then if I choose to do a residency (which I most likely will) that will be 1-3 more years after that. Residencies are not “school” by definition, but they really are an extension of your education. Some schools only look for the equivalent of two years of undergrad, and some it’s all but required that you get a BA/BS before the PharmD program(like my school). </p>

<p>Check out Student Doctors Network. They have a lot of good pre-pharmacy information. If recommend searching the forums for answers before making a new thread, though, because sometimes people flame others if it’s a topic that has been covered again and again (like “what should I major in?”… that’s asked over and over again). I didn’t see a nurse anesthetist forum, but there is an anesthesiology forum, so I’d post something there and see what crops up.</p>

<p>People on SDN are also super doom-and-gloom about the outlook for pharmacy. I think there’s a skewed presence of doom-and-gloomers though because people don’t go post on forums when they are oh-so-happy with their jobs and lives. They are much more likely to do so when they are unhappy. That could be my wishful thinking, though. We have had a few reports at my school of trends that are going to offset the saturation of pharmacists, but we still need to see if they pan out or not.</p>

<p>In the end, though, I’d say shadow in both fields and figure out which is best for you. You want to be satisfied with your job, so don’t pick one because the track is easier or the pay is better.</p>

<p>Good luck with pursuing these careers! If you have any pharmacy questions, feel free to shoot them my way and I’ll do my best to answer them.</p>

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<p>Thank you so much ranza, I guess the best way is indeed to just shadow each career. How would I go about shadowing a CRNA? Should I just call a hospital and ask for one directly?</p>

6

<p>I truly don’t know. If you have any personal connections in a hospital (family member, friend, etc) I’d ask them if they have any advice. Otherwise you can always start by asking at an information desk. If that doesn’t work the first time, call at a different time on a different day in case a different worker is more helpful. If that doesn’t work, do some searching for a phone number you can find on the hospital’s website that may seem appropriate to call for that purpose. It never hurts to show up in person and ask either. That’s what I did when I shadowed at a rural hospital. I probably should have included that in the first post. At a large urban hospital, I contacted the DoP directly, but I got his # from my mom who works at the hospital. </p>

<p>You could also see if your university has a pre-professional/pharmacy/medical club that would have connections for shadowing. You could also contact the pre-health advisers to see if they have ideas or talk to the school’s career center.</p>

<p>I see that you posted on SDN. Hopefully you get some good responses!</p>

<p>I would also like to add that you can probably just tell them that you’re interested in these careers and ask where they can direct you for shadowing. Most people working in medical fields are more than helpful when they know you are interested in what they do and will work hard to get you in the clinic. That’s my experience, anyways.</p>

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<p>Sadly… I do not. I will indeed make a couple of visits today. Thank you ranza003 for all of your help</p>

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<p>“We have had a few reports at my school of trends that are going to offset the saturation of pharmacists, but we still need to see if they pan out or not.”</p>

<p>ranza003, what do you mean by that? What do you mean by trends? As in pharmacy will have a better outlook?</p>

9

<p>I think there will still be openings for pharmacists but it may be impossible to get one is an urban area especially as a fresh grad. You will need to look at places more rural like Kentucky, Arkansas, Montana… where fewer pharmacists will want to live. Unlike chemists there is a need for a pharmacist anywhere there is a store pharmacy and that is anywhere in the nation. Just don’t get that PharmD and hold firm to getting a position in Chicago, LA, NY…</p>

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<p>First off, a lot of people are equating the saturation of pharmacists in the work market to not getting outrageous bonuses like when there was a shortage of pharmacists. Here’s a quote from another forum:</p>

<p>“My problem is a lot of people are equating not getting bonuses, cars, etc. to being saturated. Are far as I can remember, every job I have applied for (over 10 years worth) did not include any of these things. All this means is pharmacy is like every other job field now and you actually have to work at selling yourself to your potential employer. This is not equal to there not actually being any openings.”</p>

<p>I think the job market also heavily relies on what part of the country you’re in. States with more schools will have more pharmacists for less positions. Areas like Chicago, Texas and California are good examples of this.</p>

<p>There’s two “trends” I was referring to:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Target and other big-box organizations are starting to open MTM clinics on a small scale. If these clinics are successful, then they will spread the services nation-wide and other companies will follow.</p></li>
<li><p>MTM services are a huge part of health care reform, regardless of if Obamacare gets repealed or not. One of my school’s professors is on an extended sabatical in DC working on health care policy, and a huge part of it is pushing for MTM services to be covered through insurance and getting the word out about the services. The team in DC that is responsible for proposing and writing the policies to push MTM through is working as fast as they can. When they are given five years to do a study and report back, they take 18 months. You get the gist of it. The two biggest problems facing the spread of MTM right now are that A) it’s not profitable because many places don’t have a payment structure for the services and B) nobody knows about the services and how helpful they can be.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Basically, people are working on getting pharmacists out from behind the counter and interacting with people, but there will always be a place for dispensing. People are tweaking out about machines taking over pharmacist’s jobs, but in places like San Francisco where entire hospital pharmacies have been automated, the pharmacists are just re-allocated to duties that don’t include dispensing, so they can have a more wide-spread effect on patient care.</p>

<p>There are trends that are against pharmacy, like mail-order, but overall I think that pharmacy is heading in the right direction. The problem is that tons of new schools opened in the last decade or so, and now pharmacists have to work to sell themselves for jobs just like everyone else does, and sometimes that means going rural to get experience first. Supply and demand. Once the economy improves (if it ever does…) we will probably also see a better job market for pharmacists as well.</p>

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<p>I just felt a little dissuaded after reading this forum…
[Don’t</a> become a Pharmacist - Pharmacist Jobs | Indeed.com](<a href=“http://www.indeed.com/forum/job/pharmacist/Don-t-become-Pharmacist/t248681]Don’t”>http://www.indeed.com/forum/job/pharmacist/Don-t-become-Pharmacist/t248681)</p>

<p>I was only thinking about working in a small hospital/retail setting for maybe 1 or two years. What are other job settings for pharmacists? I’ve also heard of pharmacists going around in hospital routes to consult the patients who are given medications (this may be false since I’ve heard from a friend recently). Can you guys enlighten this for me? Thank you again for all of your replies.</p>

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<p>Don’t take one person’s disgruntled post as a representation of an entire field. Go shadow and get some first hand experience and ask pharmacists in person what they do and don’t like about their job. Make a judgement yourself from your experiences, not from what you read on the internet. You could find posts like that about any job, and you could also find posts about how much people like their jobs. You have to take everything people say on the internet with a grain of salt (including what I say).</p>

<p>As for other fields in pharmacy, there are tons. Off the top of my head:</p>

<p>Retail/community (individually owned to big box - these make up a large portion of the job market)
Ambulatory care
Nuclear
Compounding
Inpatient/outpatient
ER
Specialties in almost anything (psych, renal, cardiac, oncology, HIV, infectious disease, pain management, etc)
Insurance
Industry
Research
Academia
PBM
MTM
Clinical
Home infusion
Policy making/government
Poison control
Veterinary
Military
Informatics</p>

<p>…the list goes on.</p>

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<p>The picture Ranza paints is slightly rosy and the doom and gloom on SDN is a little excessive - you’ll find that the truth lies somewhere between the extremes. Much of the recent oversupply and unemployment of pharmacists has to do with the stagnating economy but there are a lot of downward pressures facing the profession in general. I go to one of the top pharmacy schools in the northeast and a significant number of graduates were unemployed after 6 months but the majority were able to find jobs in the tristate area. </p>

<p>Downward pressures include (but are not limited to): (1) Stagnant economy (2) Opening of new pharmacy schools (3) PBMs squeezing reimbursements (4) Consolidation of chains (5) Closing of big-box chains, etc. </p>

<p>BTW @Ranza: MTM is not happening anytime soon, it is academia’s fantasy - it doesn’t happen in real life.</p>

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<p>@ -Lurker-</p>

<p>I am most definitely a rosy person :slight_smile: I am a wee first year pharmD student, not yet jaded and cynical and hopeful of the future. Hence why I also said to take what I say with a grain of salt. I know that I will have to work for a job (just like everyone else in this economy) and won’t have one dropped in my lap, but I am fine with that because pharmacy is what I want to pursue.</p>

<p>BTW… MTM is a work in progress, and it is progressing now (as it has been for over a decade… so yes, I realize that it is slow). No, it’s not widespread, but that’s what’s getting worked on right now with a more significant push starting in the last two or three years. What is being worked on in order to spread MTM services? Getting the general public in on the services and getting the framework for reimbursement for the pharmacists that provide the services. Neither of these will happen overnight. So yes, to a limited extent MTM is developing… unless this professor on extended sabbatical that keeps flying back from DC to guest lecture for us is lying about his occupation, work on policy and studies…</p>

<p>MTM does happen in “real life,” as I have spent a decent amount of time in MTM pharmacies (not associated with academia) in the last few months, have had several different MTM pharmacists come in for multiple discussion panels, as well as the professors that also practice MTM outside of academia. Those well-established MTM residencies in my area must also be an academic fantasy.</p>

<p>My general impression is that MTM is much bigger in the Midwest than other parts of the country. You mention that you’re from the Northeast, so perhaps from your experience MTM is that it really is not happening soon. My experience is that it is happening around me. Different parts of the country progress at different speeds with regards to different fields. Please correct me if I’m wrong. </p>

<p>Also "Downward pressures include (but are not limited to): (1) Stagnant economy (2) Opening of new pharmacy schools (3) PBMs squeezing reimbursements (4) Consolidation of chains (5) Closing of big-box chains, etc. " <— Very true. Non-rosy statement, and all.</p>

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<p>What exactly is MTM? I’m really leaning towards pharmacy right now because the study itself intrigues me. I want to learn and discover new drugs. I would probably try to land a job on being a research pharmacist or even one of the pharmacists that take routes around the hospital to consult patients. I enjoy working with people, and as a pharmacist, I would like to incorporate a little of both.</p>

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<p>MTM stands for medication therapy management. It is a service provided in pharmaceutical care. Wikipedia has a decent overview of what MTM is. In a nutshell, you the pharmacist sit down with the patient and go over all of their medications as a whole to make sure that they are indicated, effective, safe and convenient (you will have IESC drilled into your brain in school). You identify drug therapy problems if there are any and come up with a care plan for the patient to resolve any DTPs. The way I just stated it sounds very simple and not that interesting; it’s hard to do justice to the practice without an in-depth explanation… Or at least I think so. It’s a more holistic approach to making sure that patients are on the optimal drug therapy. You also take their lifestyle and medication experience into account, so it’s a lot more focused on treating the patient as a whole and not just the ailment. If the pharmacist feels the need to change the drug therapy, then they collaborate with the prescriber to do so. Some MTM pharmacists also have a practice agreement with physicians that allows them to make changes to certain prescriptions without having to have it approved by the physician first, giving them more say in the patient’s care.</p>

<p>You can go into research with a PharmD, but my understanding is that most researchers have a PhD on top of their PharmD or are PhDs in a related field like med chem. I think that it would be difficult to find a research position that involves both drug design/discovery as well as interaction with people. You could probably work on clinical trials for new drugs, but that wouldn’t have you in the lab “discovering” the drugs yourself. I admittedly know very little about research, so maybe someone can chime in that has more knowledge on the topic. Lurker, perhaps?</p>