<p>Qualified middle class students, who know about applying to elite schools, may not bother either, because even though some Ivies claim to meet 100% of need, an EFC of 25-35K+ for a family who is middle class, may put them out of the running financially as well. That is why so many middle class students just apply to the state flagship schools with lower tuition rates and the possibility of living at home and commuting or lower tier schools which give substantial merit aid. Kind of disheartening …qualified middle class kids can be left out of Ivy League schools too. I guess it’s good that it doesn’t take Ivy, to be a successful person.</p>
<p>In my opinion, it’s not that the information isn’t available, and not that the students don’t believe they can academically handle the schools. I have done years of research! We knew that Yale (and others) would be cheaper than several of the in-state schools my son applied to because of our income, but there are other factors at work. Such as, we would not be able to visit, and he would not be able to come home very often - perhaps twice per year. Even the initial move-in would require a huge expenditure for us, unless he just packed a suitcase and left. We joked about how if someone asked where his clothes came from, he should just go ahead and tell them WalMart and see what they had to say. In a way I wish he had tried it just to prove he is as smart and as good as the other students there, but frankly, I’m more relieved that he is going to school nearby with a good scholarship at a state school. If he gets sick, if he needs anything, we can be there without a problem.</p>
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<p>Admittedly, while I was lower income, I attended one of the NYC Specialized HSs where there was a widespread elite U or bust mentality and the assumption that if one had great stats and application, there’s going to be FA/scholarship money for low-income to lower-middle class students. </p>
<p>However, even at Stuy, there were some pretty overprotective parents with the “any college is the same” mentality who ended up forcing their kids to attend the local CUNYs back when the system was at its nadir. While most had C/D level GPAs…others were forced to go despite acceptances with full FA/scholarships because the parents wanted them to remain local. Most ended up transferring up to elite colleges after finding the academic pace at thoe public colleges back then to be underwhelming and their academic needs unmet. </p>
<p>I had a few clueless older relatives who despite being upper-middle class tried the same “all colleges were the same” matra with me. Thankfully, I chose to ignore them and ended up going to a top-30 LAC with a near-full ride which made it cheaper to go there than to attend my local CUNY. </p>
<p>Thank goodness my parents had enough faith in me despite my abysmal HS GPA that I had what it took to handle move-ins/outs by myself and yes…I did literally pack one suitcase when I went off to my LAC at 17. </p>
<p>Granted, my father did have some concerns about the LAC being “too hard for me academically”* because my GPA placed me in the bottom 25% of that year’s admitted pool. Despite some minor pains, I did fine and graduated with flying colors. </p>
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<li>Part of that was an unfortunate story involving the son of a famous Chinese writer well-known in the Sinosphere whose fame strongly influenced many Profs at an Ivy to lobby the adcoms back in the '70s to admit the son despite low stats. After a semester or two, the son found he couldn’t keep up with the academic pace/workload and ended up hanging himself.</li>
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<p>Perhaps poor students from Memphis cannot afford to fly to rural Maine to see Bowdoin before applying, for accepted students weekend, and then to and from for every semester. Logistically, it’s a nightmare for people who can only afford the bus or a short drive. A poor kid from Boston would find it easier to travel to Bowdoin, Harvard, etc for tours.</p>
<p>Most people don’t realize that the “super expensive” elite schools will probably give them a full ride through financial aid.</p>
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<p>The above is an example of what the demographics of these forums look like.</p>
<p>It takes household income of around $135,000 (household of 3, 1 in college, no other income or assets) to produce a federal methodology EFC of $25,000. That is probably in the top 10% of household income in the US. If that is the lower end of “middle class”, then does that imply that 90% of the US population is in some type of economic “lower class”?</p>
<p>If not, it appears that these forums are a bubble where many do not realize how people in the US actually live with much more typical incomes (median household income is about $50,000 (federal methodology EFC of around $4,000); for households headed by someone age 45-54, it is around $70,000 (federal methodology EFC of around $7,000)).</p>
<p>middle class =/= median income
middle class = income between lower and upper classes, enough to live a “middle class lifestyle” </p>
<p>I can promise you that the bourgeoise that led the French revolution made much more than the median French income. That did not make them upper class.</p>
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<p>Actually, in the ancien regime…social class wasn’t always correlated with income or wealth. One can be impoverished and yet, socially superior due to aristocratic birthright and conversely, the wealthiest industrialist who has far more wealth and yet regarded as socially inferior in that society among the ruling elite.* </p>
<p>In fact, this was probably one key factor in the resentment the bourgeoisie…especially the wealthy members had for the ancien regime as they were still classified as part of the lowly “Third Estate”. An estate which despite making up the vast majority of the French population of that period…were often overruled and suppressed by the socially superior First Estate(Catholic Clergy) and the Second Estate(French Royalty other than the King and Aristocracy). The King stood above them all in this social structure. </p>
<p>Once the aristocrats were tossed as the ruling elite…the bourgeoisie effectively became the new upper classes. :D</p>
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<li>In Tokugawa era Japan(1603-1868), there was a rising merchant class in which some members similarly became wealthier than the socially superior Samurai/Daimyo elite. In some cases, many Samurai/Daimyo ended up deeply indebted to members of the merchant class due to expenses associated with social class derived obligations. However, despite being wealthier and holding much financial leverage, the merchants were still commoners who had to pay due deference to the socially superior Samurai/Daimyo elite…especially since failing to do so will give any Samurai/Daimyo who felt slighted the legal right to summarily chop the offending merchant’s head off.</li>
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<p>I think people are making this a more complicated subject than necessary–it’s pretty simple really, it’s expensive to visit schools, period. Without support at home to research opportunities, students are limited to what they have at school. Some places may be good about that but most just don’t have the time to work with each student. If Harvard, Yale, etc. want these students, they need to come to them. Maybe on the East coast they visit individual schools but around here, for the most part, they have an evening event held usually in a meeting room at a hotel somewhere that is not generally accessible by bus at that time of the day. If they can’t visit individual schools, they need to call the GC’s at target schools and get individual information about these target kids and contact them. </p>
<p>As for the middle class, middle income argument—it’s been discussed, over and over again and those arguing for the “middle income” side just can’t understand how that figure is comprised. A SAHM that works 10 hours/week retail to get the discount to shop is figured into that “middle income” number–however, her husband makes $200,000/year. It’s a lifestyle, not a dollar figure. A lifestyle can be defined nationwide, a dollar figure cannot. Middle class in the US is where a person can afford an average home (or apartment depending on what is the norm where you are), 2 average cars (nothing fancy, maybe a few years old each), is putting aside money in a company 401K plan, can pay their bills, has a modest savings account, maybe takes a vacation every few years. In some areas the amount of money needed to accomplish this might be $150,000, in other areas $40,000…</p>
<p>ariesathena – Good post. The quote that you include from the article supports a conclusion that distance can be just as much of a deterrent as income. A student who lives in one of those 15 metropolitan areas may have as many as 20-30 (maybe more) of the 238 most selective colleges within 100 miles of his/her home. A student who lives in a more rural area may have none within 200 or more miles.</p>
<p>It’s a lot easier for a brilliant student from Connecticut to visit several of the 238 schools than an equally brilliant student of the same (low, middle, or high) income from rural southwest Texas to do so.</p>
<p>I’ll venture to say that most students from all income brackets would rather go to college within 100 miles of their home than more than 100 miles away (much less 1000 miles away). If the 238 most selective schools were evenly distributed throughout the United States, distance would be less of a determining factor, but they are not. Long distances and low income together can make going to a more selective school very difficult, if not impossible.</p>
<p>Lack of information is a real problem. One way to create a lack of information is obviously to make information unavailable. </p>
<p>Another way is to make so much information available that its hard to distinguish good from bad, right from wrong or useful from useless.</p>
<p>It’s not a conspiracy but just a result of information overload. I’ve been given so much bad information from others it’s unreal. It’s just how it is.</p>
<p>The problem isn’t limited to low SES either. If you are pursuing an education from a school that admits less than 25% of applicants, there is a lot of bad info out there. Getting advice from people who’ve never done something is the worst advice ever.</p>
<p>My Ds guidance counselor said she never had a kid get into an ivy until my D. That eye opener explains why she was so useless in the process other than being a strong cheerleader for my D.</p>
<p>Unless one has experience, one doesn’t know what one doesn’t know. The reason rich parents send their kids to expensive prep schools is for the advising, not because they teach chemistry or calculus better than everyone else.</p>
<p>I also think “information” translates to any income class. If you don’t know about the financial aid programs at the Ivys and only know they cost $60K, that will stop a lot of people from applying. Same thing with most private schools, people see the price tag and stop looking, not realizing that they are typically very generous with merit aid or have a wider income range for financial aid. We’ve talked to a few of the kids’ friends that have found out that they can’t really afford the state schools here without large loan debt upon graduation–the same people that were telling us they can’t apply to private schools because they can’t afford to go there…but they are paying double or more what our kids will pay as a result.</p>
<p>You also have to consider culture. It’s very frowned upon to look too 'white" in the lower income levels–even if you are white. Harvard would be the epitome of “white”. It’s a lot to overcome if all of your “friends” are suddenly not talking to you because you are acting too white by going to college and especially going to Harvard. THAT has to change!</p>
<p>In order to get a spot in a ‘top’ college, applicants these days apply to many. The paperwork, varied requirements of each college not to mention the sending of test scores and transcripts is a huge amount of work and organization. Then you have to follow all the financial aide rules for all the schools that you might get in to. </p>
<p>Under these circumstances, I don’t find this news surprising. Even the applications to college ask mostly about extra curricular activities and very little about employment - which creates a disadvantage for kids who take a job when there is a financial need.</p>
<p>The Ivies do not bother to reach out to middle class students, much less poor ones. Around here they send reps to the expensive private schools but not to the publics. However, the state flagships have a transparent system: take the required classes and be in the top 10% and you will get a spot. The Ivies are just too far from the west coast to even be on the radar here. Few kids bother and our state Us are still excellent.</p>
<p>OP and others –
There is another thread on this topic <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1474318-ny-times-better-colleges-failing-lure-poorer-strivers.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1474318-ny-times-better-colleges-failing-lure-poorer-strivers.html</a> and THAT thread is a merger of two threads. IIRC, there was a <em>fourth</em> thread on the topic which was locked a couple of days back, due to there being several others on the topic.</p>
<p>Perhaps this thread should be merged with the other.</p>
<p>Marsian: yes, I think some of it is a preference of parents and students to stay within a few hours of home. Now, snobby people may claim that this is provincial and that students really need to broaden their horizons, but I can fully understand why families of limited means simply do not want to ship their 18-year-old across the country for college. Should something go wrong, it would be a financial and logistical nightmare to get help for the kid. </p>
<p>And for truly low-income families, it is not even feasible to do this - they simply <em>do not have</em> an extra two thousand dollars per year for airfare. I guess the kid from Memphis could spend three days on a Greyhound to get up to Bowdoin, but, ya know…</p>
<p>When I was in college, I needed a couple trips to the ER, two surgeries, and a few other things (and yes, those are all separate medical problems). Let me tell you, it was great that I was able to get continuous care throughout the summers, and it was nice, for all involved, that my dad made it to the ER ten minutes after the ambulance did. Things were hard enough for me, a kid from a well-off family that lived a short drive away; I cannot imagine what that would have been like as a poor kid whose parents were halfway across the country, with no way to get to me or get me home.</p>
<p>But some very limited people might say, “But it’s sooo provincial that parents want their kids to stay close to home! They need to have their horizons expanded!” Maybe part of the solution is for colleges to give travel stipends to really poor kids.</p>
<p>Poor students may be (justifiably) more hesitant than their middle-class and wealthy peers to take out student loans. Most people here wouldn’t bat an eyelash at the idea of having their kids take out $5k a year in loans for Cornell, but that might be a hefty fraction of the total household income for a poor kid’s parents. If your parents make $25k a year, you’re not going to want to take on $20,000 in student loan debt for undergrad. </p>
<p>Moreover, poor kids’ parents can’t help them as much if something goes wrong. It might be hard to live with mom and dad after graduation to pay down the loans, especially if there isn’t a mom and a dad, and mom is living with her boyfriend. Or if mom can only afford a one-bedroom apartment and you’re sleeping on the couch in the living room. Not taking on any debt can, in that situation, be a very financially mature and rational choice, simply because there is no safety net. </p>
<p>Many schools want students to contribute out of summer earnings, but many poor families rely on their kids’ incomes to help make ends meet. At the very least, those incomes are expected to pay for all of the kid’s needs - car, clothes, phone, shoes, sports, incidentals. Yet many colleges expect that these kids will be able to use their summer money to help defray college costs. </p>
<p>It seems like the hand-wringers in the NYT article assume that a smart, poor kid is the same as a smart, middle class kid, just with a lower (or zero) EFC and without the amazingly enlightened people who can talk about how life-changing it is to go to a top school. (Yes, going to a top school can be an amazing experience and it can change your life, but that doesn’t mean that people avoid it out of misguided provincialism.)</p>
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<p>Is there any source for those comments? What is the ratio of public high schools graduate in the Ivies? What is the amount of financial aid given per capita at the Ivies and at the … transparent state Us? What about the financial initiatives at the same Ivies?</p>
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<p>Two thousand per year for airfare? My daughter came home for winter break and during the summer, and with good planning spent about $500 between the two round trips. This was between Boston and Atlanta. </p>
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<p>Some schools do include travel money in their need based aid package for low income students.</p>
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<p>90 percent of U.S. high school graduates are from public schools. Fewer than 70 percent of students admitted to Harvard are from public schools.
[Guidance</a> Office: Answers From Harvard’s Dean, Last of 5 Parts - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/harvarddean-part5/]Guidance”>Guidance Office: Answers From Harvard's Dean, Last of 5 Parts - The New York Times)</p>