<p>Michael Bloomberg’s charity announced an effort to reduce the number of poor students who excel in high school and fail to get through college.</p>
<p>"Today, only about one in three top-performing students from the bottom half of the income distribution attends a college with a high six-year graduation rate (at least 70 percent). "</p>
<p>Sorry I dont understand that emphasis. Virtually all of those colleges are private schools or flagships that might not be in state. They are expensive, so of course poor students dont go there, because many of them dont fully meet need. </p>
<p>The bigger question is why dont they graduate from the schools they do attend ? If these are high performing students, as the article says, I would think it likely they would graduate. Those schools have lower rates because they accept students with lower abilities (which these kids arent). </p>
<p>@mitchklong the goal is explained at the end of the article.</p>
<p>"As big as these numbers are, they clearly represent a small slice of the country. The 70,000 students, for example, make up only about 5 percent of all students from the bottom half of the income distribution. By themselves, they will not solve this country’s issues with education or social mobility.</p>
<p>It is a big mistake, however, to dismiss these students – or the colleges with high graduation rates – as unimportant. Yes, the country needs to worry about improving the quality of its K-12 education and about lifting graduation rates at colleges where dropping out is the norm. But the students who have overcome the odds to graduate from high school with stellar records can’t wait for those changes."</p>
<p>As was mentioned in the article, what I think they will find is that the percent of Pell grant students attending the elites won’t change much even if there’s a higher percentage of them among the applicants. The money has to come from somewhere. This program clearly states that they won’t be providing any additional financial aid to the students or the institutions. I’m not exactly sure how the $11M will be spent. They mention four free test vouchers, but those are currently available through the schools now, and they also mention more college advising. The college advising/mentoring will be provided by current college students who are also low income. Will this be volunteer work or will they be paid? If they’re paid, then that will help them out with their college costs as well.</p>
<p>As for why they don’t graduate from the colleges with low graduation rates, there are so many reasons. Those colleges likely have small endowments and aren’t able to provide the financial aid low income students need. If the family is struggling, and the student is struggling to pay tuition, commuting costs, books, expenses, etc. then something may need to give, and often it’s the pursuit of the BA. Also those colleges are graduating less students overall, so there are likely advising issues, education quality issues, etc. which affect all the students regardless of SES. Top students who can afford a different college are likely transferring out, but those without the means have the options of staying or dropping out. The quality of the college education does matter and it’s been said here many times that it’s the lower SES students who benefit the most from a “top” educational experience. I have no doubt that is true.</p>
<p>This initiative is a step in the right direction.</p>
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<p>The less selective schools may be worse at financial aid and net price than the more selective schools with high graduation rates. So running out of money may be more of an issue for a low income student who goes to a less selective school (other than the big merit scholarship ones – but the big merit scholarships are often not something low income students or their high school counselors know about). Also, with poor counseling resources in high school, the low income students may not end up at academically appropriate schools (i.e. in terms of offering majors of interest and the like). Many probably go to community college, but it appears as though the northeast views community college as a terminal option for those looking for associates degrees at most, rather than another option for good students to start off a bachelor’s degree education cheaply and then transfer to the state flagship (even if the community college offers courses accepted by the state flagship, the predominant viewpoint among northeast posters here appears to be that no good student should start college at community college).</p>
<p>@mitchklong - I liken this situation to the a lot of high profile athletes who do great things but never quite win the big one. These students are good at what they do but they never learned to “grind it out”. Not everyone who is put in their situation drops out or fails to climb out of the hole they found themselves in. Many of us have done it without any aid from government or university. We decided to learn how to fish rather than wait for the fish to jump into our boat. We stuck it out when things got tough and believe me there were a lot of tough times for a lot of us. This type of program will help very, very few. For the most part, this program is just good PR.</p>
<p>Everyone thinks that the kids from middle class (or higher) families have it made so we invent statistics to support the theory that URMs are forced to play uphill. Middle class kids get higher SAT scores because they can afford to pay for tutoring. They get higher GPAs because their schools are better funded, etc, etc. It goes on and on how the middle class kid has all the benefits but has anyone stopped to think about the pressure on these kids? They need to take 20 million AP classes, volunteer at a thousand different shelters and soup kitchens, startup their own internet companies with the money they make at their waitering jobs, play on the varsity football team, etc, etc. When do these kids get to sleep? It’s the pressure that they live with that enables them to grind it out. This should not be underestimated in the equation. Often times, the kid that drops out has never really had to deal with pressure; disappointment yes, but pressure and disappointment with your personal situation are different things. </p>
<p>The public universities of this country are overwhelmingly educating the Pell Grant eligible population, but public support for these universities is at an all time low. Where do we think the money is coming from? It’s not the state houses (where it used to come from). There are a few private universities who can just dip into their endowments, but education is NOT a free good for anyone. SOMEONE pays for it. And the taxpayers have decided that it won’t be them.</p>
<p>So really all they need is someone to point out where their bootstraps are? Why didn’t I think of that …</p>
<p>Back to the question of community colleges, for many this is a great way to start. It is in states or areas with great community colleges, with automatic credit transfer to state colleges, and with affordable state colleges. If any of the three are missing, it’s not an easy path and likely not the most affordable. After getting the AA, they will be applying as transfer students and have fewer options for scholarships and likely less financial aid. So two years later they may have picked up some loans for their AA and are still faced with unaffordable college options. </p>
<p>Obviously for some (students in Calif and similar states) community college is a great option and students in those states do take advantage of their community colleges as a means to a BA.</p>
<p>Ime, it’s a mistake to assume low SES top performers haven’t learned to “grind it out.” You may be thinking their grades are a gimmie, that there are no APs and no great hs teachers, that there is no mentoring, at all. Some also assume lower SES kids aren’t engaged in school and their communities, having some impact. </p>
<p>Getting more to apply to colleges with a higher grad rate is just one step. As mentioned, once in college, they then can need good advising, the rest of the “tips and monitoring” many of us are able to give our own kids. That’s not just on academics but also social questions that may arise or decision making. Sometimes, it’s just staying in contact, other times helping them navigate or resolve issues. And no, the schools with radically lower grad rates don’t always have that to offer. The “better” schools are more likely to.</p>
<p>Interesting that the article doesn’t mention colleges involved on the committee. And that it focuses on luring them to apply. The link off the article mentions reasons kids may choose to stay local (imo, not all are bad reasons or ignorance.) What would be super is to take those high performing/low SES kids and provide the mentoring support they need through whatever college they do choose. If they choose to go to cc for whatever reason, stay in touch with them- not just assume passing more of them off to bigger name schools is all it takes.</p>
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All of that stuff is only necessary for people aiming for top schools, and those students really are not the norm. Most middle class kids take less rigorous high school schedules and extracurriculars and have much less pressure on them, and manage to graduate from decent four-year schools all the same. That’s where the disparity comes in, when top achieving low-income students have lower graduation rates than moderately achieving middle class students</p>
<p>@lookingforward Yes! </p>
<p>The article did mention Franklin & Marshall as one of the participants in the discussions and that makes sense as they are one of the “meets full need” colleges. </p>
<p>The mentoring is crucial. It would also be great if there was a way to initiate a fund to help students meet a need which would otherwise cause them to drop out. I’m not talking large sums, but enough to allow a student to buy books for the semester or buy the bus pass or … Maybe it could be considered an interest free loan. I know that there’s such a high default on student loans as a whole, but if there was a way to foster a sense of students helping students, it could work. The main reason for top students who are lower SES to drop out is due to financial reasons, not a lack of perseverance. Without the drive and work ethic, they’d never have made it to the top of their class in high school to begin with.</p>
<p>I think these lower income students who do go away to college will have the same issues as middle and upper income students, plus the financial issues. I’m in shock this week as both of my kids have had a number of their new classmates leave school for a variety of reasons - illness, homesick, failing (or at least falling behind), depression. Actually, these lower income students may not even do as well managing homesickness issues as their parents may not have the money to visit, to get the student home for a break, even to send a care package. I think some of these meetings and consortia fail to realize that there are a thousand little things a student needs and there just isn’t any money for them.</p>
<p>A friend of mine was in a program where he lived in a boarding house and attended a high school (wealthy) and then they got him into Williams. He said he arrived in Williamstown on the Grayhound with one suitcase. He was under dressed for the weather, had no money, no friends, no contact with home (around 1970, I think). Great opportunity but really hard for him. I think today he would have bailed.</p>
<p>I think two things should happen to help more low-income bright students to perform well and be successful in college:</p>
<p>1- Every metro area should have at least on selective public high school geared towards the lower-income population. A public school which takes students based on highest score in some admission test, while reserving all or at least most places for students coming from a certain low income range. There, students should be prepared to attend college same way many very good public schools prepare them, with proper resources to do so. Merely selecting on ability would do wonders for the formative years of teens who are otherwise living and studying with low-expectation peers, youth gang members and similar situations.</p>
<p>2- Residential colleges ought to get financial aid right for lower-income students. It is too easy for the upper and middle class staff that manage financial aid, and also scholarship programs, to overlook small things like the effect a small mismatch on cash flow can have on the ability of a low-income student to eat over a break when dining halls are closed. Many students have little money to afford Thanksgiving travel, winter break travel, spring break travel back home, yet many halls close. Colleges should assume that kids from precarious familiar situations just don’t have any source of money support from home, and need full assistance. That isn’t favored much with the super-hero super-overachiever sink-or-swim narratives we hear often, but many middle and upper class parents who dismiss these initiatives as excessive coddling wouldn’t think their children should all drop from college just because Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg did it and yet ended up very successful. </p>
<p>Selective & public, don’t really go together.
everyone deserves a chance to attend a good school.
I do agree that there needs to be more of a socioeconomic mix in schools.</p>
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<p>Not only what @ucbalumnus said, but also the top schools have better resources - academic support, mental health support, etc. I went to a good but not top-ranked LAC (of which a very significant proportion of students were Pell grant recipients) and an Ivy League graduate school, and I was astonished at the difference in support services extended to undergraduate students. They have an entire division that’s devoted to the academic advising of undergraduate students, including something like 25 advising deans whose sole job it is to manage a portfolio of undergrads in terms of their schedules, how they’re doing in classes, balancing personal and academic lives, etc. That simply did not exist at my undergrad.</p>
<p>Not to mention that these top schools often have extra money laying around that they can use - to help cover the shortfall in a lean year for students; to pay for plane tickets home in an emergency; to help finance the gap for studying abroad or special enrichment programs. These things exist for lower-income students who ask. Less prestigious, less selective schools have smaller endowments and less money to do these kinds of things.</p>
<p>I think statistically the low SES students are just as likely to graduate from the top schools as their wealthy peers, if they can get in.</p>
<p>“Low six-year graduation rate” recently has become code for For-Profit, sometimes unaccredited, colleges with majors such as “BA in Health Technician Information Assistant” (OK, I made that major up, but you get the idea). These offer short, easy to access “fixes” of a quick degree, and have excellent services in helping secure loans and streamline payments. They are recently under fire for high rates of student loan defaults and high per-credit costs.</p>
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<p>My sister’s son’s Vandy roomie was in a similar situation. He had a very low income single mom who couldn’t provide anything. My nephew is a very generous and sweet young man and helped him out as much as he could (along with help from my sister). </p>
<p>I’m always concerned when low income kids go to full need schools that are at a great distance from home. Their families can’t bring them home for holidays or visit them at anytime. I don’t know what these families do come graduation. do they just not come?</p>
<p>My mother didn’t come to my graduation. They’d moved 2000 miles away, I had 3 younger brothers still in school, it was just too complicated. My father arranged some business in the area so attended the morning graduation and then went to work. I went to lunch with my friend’s mother and brothers.</p>
<p>These same parents drove 3 hours to watch my nephew graduate from Kindergarten.</p>
<p>The full-need schools now include “transportation” in their financial aid package, so that the student can travel back for the holidays. They also now have a “winter fund” with heavy coats.
However I don’t know what they do for graduation, as I doubt that’s included in the package.</p>
<p>When current Harvard professor and Partners in Health co-founder Paul Farmer graduated from Duke, his parents didn’t have a working car or money to attend Farmer’s graduation . A neighbor of the Florida family loaned his parents a van and gave them gas money to take Paul’s whole family up to Duke from Florida. His parents and brothers and sisters were living in an old broken-down school bus at the time. It can pay to invest in higher education for low-income kids.</p>
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<p>Wow…where is the “winter fund” listed? I’ve never heard of that.</p>
<p>As for transportation…we’ve all seen transportation listed as a line item on COAs. Often the amounts are too low to cover holiday transportation. Transportation estimates should cover: arrival to school (airfare, shuttle), transportation during the semester (Metros, etc), transportation for significant breaks (Winter break), and transportation home at year end. </p>
<p>I’ve rarely ever seen a transportation estimate that is high enough for all of that. The cost to fly for fall arrival (plus shuttle) and the cost to fly home in the spring, usually take all of the estimate, if not more. It’s not unusual for holiday travel to cost $500+ all by itself. A friend of mine is spending nearly $700 to fly her student home this winter…plus round-trip shuttle costs. No way does his COA cover his fall, winter and spring travel costs. </p>
<p>BTW…to say that these things are included in the FA pkg can be misleading since few, if any, schools provide 100% of COA with grants (do any?). Usually there is a “student contribution” of a couple thousand, so transportation, books and winter clothes are likely being paid out of that. </p>