<p>Campuses are in cities. Sure, it makes the young woman feel better for a while to kick the guy out of school but now he goes and rapes someone at the mall. And, in a couple of years she won’t be at that school anymore and he will still be raping people in parking lots and shopping centers. If he committed a crime kicking him off campus is not the appropriate action. College is not an island in the middle of nowhere. And crime is either criminal or it isn’t. And, there does have to be some proof which some young women now think is offensive, so I don’t know how to fix this. </p>
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<p>Read that Rolling Stone article about the freshman girl who was gang-raped at a frat party and who then kept running into her rapists in class and on campus - and then tell me that kicking rapists out of school solves nothing.</p>
<p>I agree with CF - expelling rapists does plenty. Keeping rapists in college says plenty about the university in question (and none of that message is good.) Read that Rolling Stone article and tell me you’re not horrified and disgusted. </p>
<p>From the article:</p>
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<p>By the nature of their crime, most rapists can’t be convicted in court, even though they’re guilty, guilty, guilty. Women don’t want to report their rapes to police because they know perfectly well that the experience will be like a second rape and their attacker has a only teeny tiny chance of getting convicted.</p>
<p>But with a lower standard of proof, at least rapists can be gotten off campus. And that’s something. </p>
<p>I just think it’s very short-sighted to treat college like a bubble with rules that are different from those off campus. What will happen to these people in 4 years? They are not learning the real world rules of life.</p>
<p>A college should not be involved in deciding things that are of a criminal nature. it is not a court of law. I would not support expulsion of a student/employee for any crime until found guilty in a court of law. However, behavior that is provable and against college rules that are present can serve as such grounds. Also requiring those students who are accused of certain level crimes to take a leave of absence while dealing with the accusations could work. The unfortunate situation is that there is a rampant disregard for college rules involving use of drugs, alcohol and behaviors that often lead into situations such as rape and even murder, to an extent that colleges will not go after those students. </p>
<p>In the UVA Hannah Graham case, the victim had clearly been drinking. Underage she was served alcohol, maybe drugs, to the point where she was cognitively affected, which led to possibly getting lost, and allegedly abducted and killed. Not a thing has been done about the students who gave her the drinks, who knew she was drinking, knew she was drunk, and allowed a incapacitated young woman to go on her way alone at night. Not a thing has been done about that–the focus is all on the bar that MIGHT have served that last drink to her (unproven) and the non UVA suspect who was last with her. Bear in mind, that from the info in the case, the indicators are strong that the alleged perp likely killed her. But there is a lot of shame, IMO, on part of those who served this young woman alcohol, and did not have some good neighbor/friend to accompany her when she headed out alone.</p>
<p>As for the Jesse Matthews, yes, he was expelled from Liberty University, not because of rape, but for having sex. The rape part of the situation was not taken to court, not proven, no civil suit. At Liberty, at that time, and even now, having sex as a single student is reason enough for sanction, including expulsion. That he continued this behavior at his next school, yes, shows a serial tendency. But again, either the victim did not file charges with the law, or the case was not prosecutable with the evidence. However, there were again enough breach of college rules, that JM was expelled once again.</p>
<p>Though there was insufficient evidence to prosecute JM for either of those allegations of rape, that the accusations were brought to the attention to the college, put on record and the college acted on where the breach of their rules were, gives everyone a track record in terms of who JM is. That those incidents are on file, though not legal convictions lends a lot of credence to the charges of rape that he is facing. There might be a whole different outlook on this man being accused of abducting Hannah Graham if he did not have this sort of thing on his record. That his DNA is evidence in another rape case is also something that we can note, a case for which he is being tried. But even absent that strong case, that he has on his records, two incidents of accusation of sexual assault is significant.</p>
<p>That is why victims of sexual assault should be encouraged to report the incident to the college, to the police even if it turns out that there is insufficient evidence for a conviction or even consequences. It helps future victims if that person is a serial rapist. A person accused of such an incident, though maybe innocent of the charges, both in terms of the standards of a court of law or in just any hearing of the case, will have this incident on record, and will have to tailor behavior accordingly in the future. It is possible, IMO, that such behaviors can be curbed in some, if the incentive is strong enough and though I am a strong advocate of the rights of the accused, this is important to happen.</p>
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<p>Why not? They can expel someone for fighting, can’t they?</p>
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<p>Preponderance of the evidence is the standard in many situations off campus. FangCo can fire someone for sexual harassment based on preponderance of the evidence.</p>
<p>A young woman is raped. She goes to the police. The police grill her about the entire incident- what was she wearing, had she been drinking, she really wanted that sex didn’t she, why isn’t she beaten black and blue. It’s a horrible. The prosecutor declines to bring charges. And this teaches the rapist the rules of the real world how?</p>
<p>Never mind, it teaches them that they can rape with impunity. Which, pretty much, they can.</p>
<p>At least if the rapist is thrown out of college they get some punishment. Not as much as they deserve, but some.</p>
<p>I understand the questions are uncomfortable and yes, she is claiming she was forced so she will be asked if she resisted. Teaching a rapist anything seems futile. That’s why all of these discussions that start with, “We need to teach young men…” leave me puzzled. Criminals are not criminals because someone forgot to teach them it was bad to shoot people, steal stuff, or rape classmates.</p>
<p>The problem is, she’ll go through all this and then the dude won’t be charged. So what’s the point?</p>
<p>It seems to me it’s asking too much of rape victims to go through the worst experience of their lives, then have to go to the police to be abused, to no purpose. Why would you advise a young woman who was raped to do that, unless you had good reason to expect a conviction? </p>
<p>Depends on the circumstances. Rapists are charged and convicted. And, personally I have more confidence in the cops than a college administrator and a police record even without a conviction can help save the next girl. But, the definition of rape seems to be evolving, too.</p>
<p>Some rapists are charged and convicted. The vast majority of reported rapes don’t lead to an arrest, let alone a conviction. I personally have confidence in cops to discount rape reports that are true.</p>
<p>Women have to report these crimes to the police. There is no other way to start the process of sending the message that men who sexually assault will be held accountable. Unfortunately, the legal system does not support them nor do the communities who have sat silent for so long while these assaults have occurred on their campuses. Going public with this sort of thing is very, very hard for a woman. But it might become easier if there was support for her from other women. For the most part these women are ostracized. That has to change. </p>
<p>But I have been thinking about what responsibility a parent might have if their own D is a victim of such an assault. I have not walked in those shoes so I don’t have any “instruction manual” or suggestions for others. For me, if my D was on board I would go after that boy or boys with every available legal remedy that was available. I would not stop. </p>
<p>The problem with rape is that it isn’t as provable as fighting, assault, and any number of other crimes. You can expel a student for fighting only when there is the evidence it happened. If a school hears about a fight, but can’t come up with any evidence that it happened, it’s not going to to be able to expel a person. The only fights for which I have seen consequences are those that are not only reported, but there is evidence of them. If one student says that another punched him–no witnesses, no police report, and there is total denial on the part of the other student, what can be done? The problem with rape, that the sex is often consensual, and with rape, the way it is reported can make it an uncertainty whether it is an assault or was consensual. Cases, where a student runs out of dorm room half naked, screaming rape are one thing. Doesn’t often happen that way. In some cases, it’s not reported until the evidence that there was even sex between the parties is gone. It’s one person’s word against the other. If someone without a mark on him claims he was punched a few weeks ago by another, isn’t going to get far with assault charges, or fighting charges with more than that as evidence. Sometimes that’s all there is.</p>
<p>what’s happening now on campuses is a good thing in terms of talking about this problem, the MSM coverage of it and the discussion, in that it hopefully will support more rape victims to report the transgression even when there is no chance of a court conviction. The report will bring the alleged rapists name out there, and an investigation can ensue, and those so affected, will be put on notice. Because there is the possibility that the accused is innocent, I do not believe that that unless some other provable infractions are involved (which may well be found in the course of investigation) that anything will happen. But the report will be on file for future reference and the accused will have to be on notice about that. The importance of that should be relayed to the victims. Unfortunately, no, it does not mean the victim is going see the perp jailed or even expelled when the evidence is not there. There are larger issues at stake. But with rape being brought out into the open more, more discussion . encouragement, support. the case can be made and stressed that it’s to help the next possible victims. Advocating, supporting, activism could do a lot in healing the victims, enpowering them, instead shaming them</p>
<p>I think calling the local police and requiring counseling should both be mandatory. I think there should be a very short window of opportunity to press honor code violations. The criminal window is much longer and is always available. </p>
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<p>cptofthehouse, I’m assuming this is a typo and you meant to say something different.</p>
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I think the above quote is important. </p>
<p>I have no idea what exactly “yes means yes” means. How does a male prove consensual sex when he gets involved with a woman described in post #56? </p>
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I think there is a bias in thinking that all accusers are victims.</p>
<p>Thank you CF for “getting it”. I was raped, with a gun to my head. The person was arrested, but what I was put through just in the preliminary hearing was disgusting. After that I refused to continue, and god forbid if it ever happened again, I would not go to the police. Things need to change.</p>
<p>Things need to change but presuming guilt is not the way to change things. That is an unsustainable path. </p>