<p>Consolation’s link is gated for me.</p>
<p>its all right CF. It’s a horror story like the UVA story. Really awful. The usual: freshman, athletes/fraternity, booze. School protecting the rapists, failing to investigate, coming after her for speaking up about it. et al. </p>
<p>I hope she is okay, as well.</p>
<p>The RS article is horrifying and deeply disturbing. I can’t believe the so-called friends of Emily talked her out of reporting because (at least according to the article) they were worried about their own social lives. I wonder how they can sleep at night - especially after reading this article.</p>
<p>I understand UVA (and other schools) wanting to allow the young woman the choice of how to pursue this, especially when the charges are made many months later and there is no physical evidence. However, the college could certainly take action against the fraternity or at least contact the national frat to take a closer look. It would not be that difficult in most cases to find some infraction at the frat house, even if the rape accusation cannot be proven. </p>
<p>I’m not sure I would characterize the Dartmouth story as a horror story, it’s easy enough to Goggle many versions of it. Bottom line is the male was acquitted on the testimony of the sober roommate who did not see or hear anything other than hushed whispers that which contradicted the accuser/victim who told the jury she yelled out many times and the accuser/victim also contradicted herself on several points regarding the kind and quantity of alcohol she had been drinking.</p>
<p>I’ve been trying to avoid these stories lately, because I have no idea what to do with this information, but I ended up reading the Rolling Stone article because people in my real life were referencing it. On these threads we talk about what the young women could/should have done. Is there anything we can do? Can we form some kind of parents group like MADD and descend on these campuses with all the force of our wrath so that these young men think twice about taking advantage of their classmates. The adults on campus seem pretty useless overall. Is it possible those of us so horrified here could create something to fill that void? Just a thought.</p>
<h1>109 dstark - yes. let’s make this happen.</h1>
<p>We can encourage victims to go immediately to the police. In this case it sounds as though there actually was evidence of a crime. The true he said, she said situations involving 2 drunk 19 year olds are more difficult.</p>
<p>What does one do when the case comes down to conflicting testimony? One person says it was rape. The other says it was consensual sex. The report is not made for several days at times. If someone runs out of a room crying rape, calls the police immediately, those actions are indicative of rape. Can’t say the same when time has passed. Again, the burden of the proof is on the accuser. That is the way our justice system is set up. </p>
<p>Who are these rapists? They are “our” kids. Not happened personally here, but believe me, it is not at all far fetched that a member here wiith a kid at college, gets a phone call that they are accused of rape. Had consensual sex, didn’t want to carry the relationship further, had a few too many that night which contributed to the easy sex,as did the accuser, and now an accusation is being levied. Backed up by the groups that are now organizing to make this a hot issue and looking for a case to try out. Absolutely no way, from the the story to tell who is telling the truth, and the crux of the matter is that “no” was said and ignored. </p>
<p>And the phone call could be that a student was raped. Same scenario as above, except the child involved is the alleged victim. These are all of our kids, you know. </p>
<p>Marie, 50% of rapes reported that result in arrest in conviction are generally the clear cut ones. Like the one in Fairfax county where the perp attacked a woman coming home with groceries. Stranger rape, typical rape. Dragged her off to the bushes and raped her, left marks around neck that looked like strangulation, ran for help immediately afterwards, rape kit immediately used. With DNA match which has happened, if the victim comes to court, it’s a slam dunk. </p>
<p>It’s when it’s not stranger rape, and not out of the blue rape that it’s a problem. You go out with a guy, he takes you home and you both have had a few, things get cozy. Then too far. You say, not yet, and he doesn’t stop. Many of those rapes are not reported. Sometimes it’s not even a date. It could be Cousin Joe or Uncle Dan or Aunt Sue who makes the moves. Those are the rape cases that do not get reported most of the time.</p>
<p>Then you get the situations where you know it 's going to blow your world apart to accuse. You’re in a good place, you get raped. By a colleage, whether at school or work or in the neighborhood. The accusation will mean a huge rift, and you don’t really have the proof. You didn’t report it right away. You kept quiet and now it’s eating at you and realize that your life is going to be blown anyways because you can’t let it go.</p>
<p>By reporting the rape immediately, a victim has a huge advantage in any court case, civil case, getting believed. Consensual sex does not end with phone call to 911 reporting rape and though it is still not a slam dunk case, it’s easier to win that one that when a victim waits several days. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.hws.edu/about/nytimes/flt723b.aspx”>http://www.hws.edu/about/nytimes/flt723b.aspx</a></p>
<p>"“For me, one of the most critical and undisputable facts is that Anna’s statement to the campus police … was made before there were any medical reports known or lab tests done,” wrote Parsons, who practices in Massachusetts and Wyoming. “Her statement is completely consistent with medical and lab evidence. Those same records are completely inconsistent with the statements of the senior football player. Does the prosecutor in this case believe that Anna made up the [sexual assault nurse’s] conclusion of sexual assault? Did Anna fabricate the evidence of blunt force trauma? Did Anna fabricate the conclusion of multiple partners, multiple intercourse acts or very forceful sex? Did Anna fabricate the sperm and seminal fluid?”</p>
<p>Told of Parsons’ comments Tuesday, Tantillo said he stands by his earlier statements and decisions. In his earlier interview with the Finger Lakes Times, Tantillo called The New York Times story unfair and characterized the alleged victim as uncooperative.</p>
<p>Parsons said she and her client had cooperated fully. She said Tantillo and local police failed to obtain DNA from the accused and compare it to Anna’s rape kit samples."</p>
<p>“How is the Princeton policy working out? <a href=“Committee recommends freshman fraternity, sorority policies”>http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S33/26/14M08/</a> They forbid freshmen from having any contact with fraternities or sororities, right? I think that’s a good idea. The first few weeks of freshman year are so dangerous. Kids want to explore, but they don’t have firm groups of friends yet. Some students come to campus with no experience with parties at which alcohol is served. Even if such a policy merely ensures the students going to frats are 19 rather than 18, there’s a benefit”</p>
<p>LOL - like Tiger Inn and some of the other exclusive eating clubs there aren’t just as bad as any Animal House style frat. </p>
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<p>It is not the case that 50% of rapes that get reported result in conviction. That’s not even close. In fact, less than 50% result in an arrest, let alone a conviction.</p>
<p>Maybe 50% of the cases where there is an arrest result in a conviction, but that is a very different statistic.</p>
<p>Read the backlog link CF posted earlier. Marie, there are thousands and thousands of uninvestigated rape kits in this country. In the places where they do the work, convictions go up by 30%. </p>
<p>Reporting will go up when investigating goes up. </p>
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<p>Pizzagirl, we are discussing rape on this thread, right? My question was a serious one, not deserving of a offhand slur (without links) of an eating club which is not a frat. Upon reading your comment, I did search for “rape Tiger Inn,” and found this: <a href=“Planet Princeton⋆ Princeton, NJ local news, events, schools, things to do.”>Planet Princeton⋆ Princeton, NJ local news, events, schools, things to do.;
<p>The attitudes expressed in the email from the president of the alumni club are distinctly not tolerant of objectionable behavior.</p>
<p>So, I ask again, seriously, has the policy at Princeton had any effect in keeping at least freshmen women safe?</p>
<p>It used to be that you couldn’t say “breast cancer” in public. It used to be that gays were in the closet instead of the wedding chapel. I look forward to the day that it “used to be” that reporting rape put shame on the victim, but it will take time and some very brave and very loud women, and some very pushy and loud lawyers and law enforcement officers and journalists and parents and families to make it happen. It can happen, and has to start somewhere. </p>
<p>Much of this discussion reminds me of the “snitches get stitches” mentality that keeps crime so high in some neighborhoods. If rape victims know they will be shamed and the attackers will not be punished, there is nothing to gain and much to lose by reporting, and that needs to change. </p>
<p>And for the love of God, can we please compose a standard response to the whining about whether a victim who is willing to testify should go to the university or the police? The answer is yes. The University can take care of the administrative task of expelling the accused if the review meets the preponderance of evidence criteria, just like an accused could be expelled for academic cheating, illegal substances, stealing, vandalism, or trespassing in the chemistry lab. It is a privilege to attend college, that’s why we have applications and admission committees. You can lose that privilege for many reasons, sex assault should be one of them. The law enforcement/prosecuting team can take care of the criminal charges and gathering evidence for the processes which can deprive the accused of freedom. Those are and should be separate processes. Just like you can be both fired from your job and prosecuted if you embezzle. It’s not that hard.</p>
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<p>exactly.</p>
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<p>poetgrl was referring to a different article I posted. It was about the case at Hobart & William Smith.</p>
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<p>I get SO angry when I read such nonsense. Cpt, I’m sure you are a good person and you really believe this. There are some cases like the one you describe. As I said before, my best estimate is that here are about a dozen such cases a year–at all American college campuses COMBINED. They are horrific…and I am most definitely NOT denying that they are. But…reality is …</p>
<p>The vast majority of college rapes are committed by rapists–rapists by anyone’s definition. They take advantage of the college environment to rape. I’ve spent time reading some of the literature. Someone cited Lisack’s work. He seems to have done better research than most. Use google scholar to find some of it. Some you need to pay to access…but a lot of it is available for free. (And even some of the pay stuff can be accessed at many public libraries.) </p>
<p>These are criminals…real criminals. They use booze as a weapon. They start their evening with the PLAN of raping someone. They get the person drunk. Sometimes, they even roofie her. After raping her, they continue to drink and then pass off any complaints about what happened as “drunken sex.” They “bond” with other guys who have had REAL drunken sex…and who assume the REAL rapists are just guys like them. They get them to cover for them. Every study shows that a disproportionate share of REAL campus rapes are committed by athletes and frat brothers.</p>
<p>Frat brothers and team members are more likely to cover for the REAL rapists because they are friends and assume that their buddies just got drunk. When a frat guy or athlete sees a team member or brother being sexually aggressive with a young woman, he’s less likely to step in and stop him. One interesting fact that shows up in some of the studies I’ve read is that it’s very uncommon for team members’ or frat members’ girlfriends to be raped. I assume this is because the team member/frat brothers get to know those girl friends as…well…REAL people. If one of them said someone else raped them, they would have a much better chance of being believed by the other team members or frat members than some girl who just came to one party. </p>
<p>Conservative estimates are that the average college rapist rapes 8 females before one reports it. I hope no parent on CC has such a son. </p>
<p>“Is there anything we can do? Can we form some kind of parents group like MADD and descend on these campuses with all the force of our wrath so that these young men think twice about taking advantage of their classmates. The adults on campus seem pretty useless overall. Is it possible those of us so horrified here could create something to fill that void? Just a thought.”</p>
<p>Ironically, UVA launched a big campaign on this at the beginning of this school year called #HoosGotYourBack. Focused on the fact that women (like the Rolling Stone victim) are at very high risk of sexual assault from the time they arrive on campus as freshman through Thanksgiving break. They call that the “Red Zone.” </p>
<p>In a heartbreaking irony, a couple of weeks before she disappeared UVA student Hannah Graham tweeted that she had helped an all alone drunken girl to get on a bus to get home safe. She signed the tweet “#HoosGotYourBack” </p>
<p>The vast majority of college rapes are committed by rapists - that is known and i accept that. The problem is the colleges are not adjudicating rape. Rape is handled in criminal courts. Colleges are in reality adjudicating honor code violations. Either all by themselves or in very, very few cases concomitantly with criminal cases. The more women think they can “avoid” the criminal system because it’s just too icky, the reality is the less power they really have. Every woman who is raped and does not call the police and chooses to use a college tribunal of staff whose primary job is NOT investigative, NOT judicial gives up the right to call the perpetrator a ‘rapist’. Until we make our young women understand that rape needs to be a criminal offense we can “talk” about how awful rape is until we’re blue in the face. Until we help them understand they can’t wait 2 weeks or 2 months or a year or two, rapists are out there with the ability to rape again. Everyone can point to Title IX and hope like heck that it will “help” women who were raped and I would say it does not. All it does is move a rapist from one home base to another…or worse moves him from one dorm to another. Very few end up in expulsion and some end up with some sort of suspension, in which case the accused can move on. Wish all you want for Title IX to be some sort of magic bullet, but in reality it has no teeth and in more than half the civil cases being brought the college is either settling with the defendant or they are losing. </p>
<p>Jonri, I absolutely believe this. Most rapes, molestations happen by someone trusted and known by the victim. To many people, date rape is not as serious as stranger rape. Family rape? Nearly always swept under the rug. A huge problem. Rape is not just a college problem. </p>
<p>Are there serial rapists out there too? Absolutely. But a lot of rape happens through opportunity. Those raped do not want to report it because they don’t want to blow up their infrastructures, their environments, their homes. </p>
<p>When I was in college, one of the girls on our floor was “dating” the brother of another girl in the dorm. He raped her. It was a situation where she absoutely did not feel she could report him. She felt that the trouble and turmoil that would happen was not worth it as the familes lived in the same area as well. Back then, I don’t know how it would have been handled. I felt that the girl had a window of opportunity to report it and when she missed that, it would not have been a case the DA would have taken. She’d hung out with the guy, spent time with him, and then just didn’t immediately cry out and raise a storm as soon as she could. That is the key with rape. </p>
<p>THough I feel that when someone has been raped and anyone finds out, that person should report it, as a person would report anyone who is injured, how to enforce that and place paramenters as to when that goes into effect, I don’t know. The whole story about “Jackie” in RS whose friends discouraged the report when the evidence was such that if that had been reported, some action was very possible upsets me terribly. I feel that those “friends” should have been treated as violators of Honor COdes. That those who don’t report cheating are more harshly treated than those who don’t report rape is disturbing. </p>
<p>I don’t believe the rapists have horns and tails. They are right here in our communities and families.</p>
<p>I agree with alot you say cpt. </p>