<p>Marny, I think stats are similar for our high school - Most of the top 25 kids at our high school were attending well known schools (not all Ivy's), but 25 out of 650 isn't really that many. OTOH my recollection from looking at the Scattergrams (they aren't posted at the moment) was that at least half the kids who applied to Harvard with SAT scores over 1450 or so got into Harvard. Odd were a bit less at Princeton and Yale and better at the other Ivy's. But nearly all those 1500+ kids at our school aren't slouches. They have impressive ECs, great grades and often published research to go with those scores. Some, like my son, are also legacies at the schools they get accepted at. </p>
<p>It was interesting to compare my son with my nephew. They have quite similar strengths and weaknesses. Nephew went to a well-known private in DC and had mixed acceptance results, my son with somewhat stronger grades had virtually the same results. Public or private high school looked like a wash.</p>
<p>I also understand the private-school world pretty well -- educated in one (and my mother spent 30 years teaching in several of them), sent my kids to one for many years, have many friends and relatives who attended them and who send their kids there, including in NYC, at different market tiers. </p>
<p>It is silly beyond words to suggest that the kids coming out of these schools, especially in NYC, are at any kind of disadvantage relative to anyone. The schools do a wonderful job of educating their students and of getting their students into college. Time and again, I have seen "interesting" -- i.e., not perfect -- kids from private schools get into HYP. Not all of them, of course -- things are competitive all over. But more than from any other population. In part, that's because the college admissions staffs know that they are superbly prepared, and know and trust the faculties and counselling staffs at those schools.</p>
<p>I understand that lots of those kids believe "If I went to a public school in the middle of nowhere, I would be #1 in my class and a shoo-in for Harvard." But the fact is that the student would often look completely different if he or she went to a public school in the middle of nowhere, might not be #1 in his or her class, and #1 in the public school class in the middle of nowhere is NOT a shoo-in for Harvard by a long shot.</p>
<p>The difference isn't night and day, of course. Good students from good public schools get into HYP all the time, too. Just not in the same numbers, and it's much more difficult to be the "perfect" kid in that position from a large public school. Roughly speaking, HYP are about 55% public school graduates, 40% private school, and 5% Catholic school. I have no idea what the percentages are in the application pool, but I would bet that public and Catholic schools represent considerably more than 60% of the applications.</p>
<p>My d and her NYC Prep school friend had similar stats and similar college results. Both girls were accepted to CMU, U of Rochester and of course the usual SUNY's. D got a rejection from Brown-- friend was rejected from Dartmouth.<br>
Though my kid did not apply to WUSTL, I am sure a call from her guidance counselor would NOT have secured a spot off the waitlist. My friends Prep school GC had the clout to get her off the waitlist.<br>
That is the reality of life. Some people have more pull and influence than others. To deny that NYC Prep school kids, or other "hooks" as legacy, have certain advantages over us regular unhooked folks is ludicrous.
I am sure there are prep school kids who go to SUNY's, but a much higher percentage will be attending a top private. Many will gain admittance based on their abilities- but some will be helped along by an influential (and connected) GC.</p>
<p>The data may or may not support an advantage for private schools. Again, the math needs to be done for comparable (at entrance) populations of students. We are asking about the "treatment effect" of elite private school compared to other alternatives for students academically qualified to enter the top NYC privates.</p>
<p>The endlessly linked Revealed Preferences study gathered data on admissions results for elite students (top 10 percentiles of public schools, top 20 of private school) at top 500 high schools in the country. Not one university admitted those applicants at a rate of less than 25-26 percent, and the rate at top 10/Ivy schools as a whole was substantially better than that. That is, the national public-or-private admissions rate of this group is about the same as the rate displayed above for the student body at a top NYC private school. I don't see that or any of the anecdotal data from elite public schools as supporting a huge advantage (or possibly any advantage) for the privates.</p>
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I understand that lots of those kids believe "If I went to a public school in the middle of nowhere, I would be #1 in my class and a shoo-in for Harvard."
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<p>That isn't the argument. It is that the selective-private population as a whole, transposed to (at least some types of) public high school would have similar or perhaps better chances. </p>
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But the fact is that the student would often look completely different if he or she went to a public school in the middle of nowhere, might not be #1 in his or her class, and #1 in the public school class in the middle of nowhere is NOT a shoo-in for Harvard by a long shot.
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<p>The ability of a student to influence their class rank is much less at private school. If you end up (without hooks etc) in the bottom half of your private school you are almost guaranteed no admission to Harvard, but if the public school equivalent is being the lower half of the top 5-10 percent, there is at least a shot.</p>
<p>No there isn't. I haven't seen a kid get into Harvard from a public school (other than, perhaps, Thomas Jefferson or Stuyvesant or the equivalent, which are easily as competitive as any private school anywhere) outside of the top 5-6 students at the time of application.</p>
<p>So if you are in the bottom half of your private school, you basically don't have a shot at Harvard??
That is just shocking!!<br>
For most of us regular folk- a kid had better be in the top 1-2 % for HYP and maybe the top 5-8% for the rest of the top privates. And then you still need a lot of luck.
Siserune- maybe your kid would have a better shot at HYP if she attended my alma mater- Sheepshead Bay HS!!
I am assuming there is more to High School than an Ivy acceptance- but if you are disappointed in the rate of acceptance from elite NYC schools, maybe you should look at the NYC public High Schools . If you have kids in Middle School/JHS, you may want to check out the Admittance Process for Tech, Stuy and Bronx HS.
They fare pretty well in Ivy admissions too. But somehow I doubt it is at the same rate as the NYC elite private schools.</p>
<p>Boston Latin, founded one year before Harvard;
Graduating class of '07: 540;</p>
<p>Applied to/ Admitted --approximate rate of admission
Brown: 34/6--1 out of 6
Columbia: 25/5--1 out of 5
Cornell: 43/11--1 out of 4
Dartmouth: 14/7--1 out of 2
Harvard: 79/32-- 1 out of 2.25?
Princeton: 15/4-- 1 out of 4
Yale: 11/3-- 1 out of 4.</p>
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So if you are in the bottom half of your private school, you basically don't have a shot at Harvard??
That is just shocking!!
<p>Common Data Sets of Harvard's peer schools (Harvard itself doesn't publish it) indicate that most students come from the top 5 percent of their high school class, but far from all of them do. Some of that is due to admitting deep into the ranklist at Stuyvesant/TJHS or the top private schools, but it also happens to applicants at good public schools. At a public school it might require more in the way of factors other than grades, but there is also more time to develop those factors for a student who does not have to deal with the private school curriculum. It is a tradeoff and one that is far from obviously in favor of the private school students. </p>
<p>For comparing Harvard admission specifically remember that even at the super-elite private cited above, fewer than 15 percent gained admission and those who did must have come from the top 20-25 percent of the class. The equivalent figure for public school is something like the top 20-25 percent of the students in the incoming top 10 percent, i.e., those academically qualified for admission to the most selective NYC private schools. So the top 2-3 percent at the most in the public school setting. There are plenty of students getting into Harvard from public schools below that class rank, but with other factors (which again, they may or may not have as much time to develop at a private school).</p>
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For most of us regular folk- a kid had better be in the top 1-2 % for HYP and maybe the top 5-8% for the rest of the top privates.
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<p>The point was that the top 5-8 percent at public schools is about the same population as the top 50 percent at the top privates, because the latter select their students. When you compare apples-to-apples it is not so clear that the private schools are having better luck in the admissions. University admissions adjusts for, and so neutralizes, a lot of the differences, as they are in part looking for "potential" and not just accomplishments-to-date.</p>
<p>Total number of college applicants, 2002-2006: 235
College destination:
Brown: 7
Columbia: 10
Cornell: 9
Dartmouth: 8
Harvard: 21
Princeton: 14
Yale: 21
Total: 90 out of 235 (or better than 1/3).</p>
<p>What I think is an objective scale to compare private HS/ vs public HS students is the PSAT/National Merit Scholar designation. (It's been a few years as d is now a college senior- so I may be using the wrong term). The Commended Student is in the top 5 % of all test takers.<br>
So--
If 50 % of the graduating class from an elite HS is designated with the Commended or semi/finalist status, then I will concede that it is possible that the top 50 % at top private HS's are equivalent to the top 5 to 8 % at the neighborhood local HS. Other than that comparison, I do not think you can make a fair comparison as there are few objective measures to rely on. Somehow, I don't think that the level at the private elites is as high as you suggest. I think you are underestimating the abilities of metro NYC kids.</p>
<p>As I said, I think the admissions may be bifurcated at the NYC elites. I am far from knowledgeable about this and would like to hear what the graduates themselves say. If half the admissions are of people who would be easily top 5 percent of public school students that explains the National Merit results, and leaves room to admit the other half of the class on status, legacy, potential for donations, business connections, etc.</p>
<p>When the Wall St. Journal did its article rating high schools (non boarding) based on the percentage of 2005 graduates that went to Ivies (minus noncooperating Columbia), Chicago, Duke, or Pomona (in lieu of Stanford, which wouldn't cooperate), Brearley didn't qualify for the final rankings because it had only 49 graduates, and the cutoff was 50. However, the article noted that 25 out of Brearley's 49 graduates went to the index schools -- and that didn't count anyone going to Columbia or Stanford! In other words, if you added Stanford, Penn, Duke, and Chicago to the list marite posted, you would probably be over 50% of the Brearley graduates in that period. Collegiate and Trinity had similar numbers, if I recall correctly, and the top school with over 50 graduates was St. Ann's in Brooklyn.</p>
<p>siserune:
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At a public school it might require more in the way of factors other than grades, but there is also more time to develop those factors for a student who does not have to deal with the private school curriculum. . . . There are plenty of students getting into Harvard from public schools below that class rank [top 2-3%], but with other factors (which again, they may or may not have as much time to develop at a private school).
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<p>Again: That's emphatically not what I have observed, with the possible exception of a handful of extraordinary public schools. The public magnet my kids graduated from sends kids to Harvard regularly, but never outside the top 1% of the class. The other, much smaller, public magnet in Philadelphia does send kids from outside the top 1% (which at that school would be 1.5 kids), but certainly not outside the top 5-6 kids. The elite suburban public schools here are similar.</p>
<p>But what's really wrong about that quote is the first and last part. In my experience, the elite private school curricula are all about maximizing the chances for students to get into elite colleges. In dozens of ways, each student's program is designed to give him or her the opportunity to demonstrate depth in a field of his or her choosing, and to minimize his or her weaknesses. There is tremendous accomodation of extra-curricular activities and school-related leadership roles are spread around very broadly. The academic workload is not heavier, although in many areas it is deeper, and there is a lot more freedom on the student's part to choose what to concentrate on. The public schools are much more one-size-fits-all. Scheduling is rigid, there are a lot of bureaucratic hoops to jump through (absences related to extra-curricular work are not well tolerated at all), and a certain amount of unavoidable busywork. It is very difficult for a student who is quirky or rebellious in any way to get acknowledgement of his or her talents.</p>
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if you added Stanford, Penn, Duke, and Chicago to the list marite posted, you would probably be over 50% of the Brearley graduates in that period.
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<p>That was exactly the calculation I made before posting my comments on the number going to top 10 + Ivy. </p>
<p>That doesn't answer what the incoming selectivity is: what percentile ranks would the students entering grade 9 at Brearley, Dalton et al occupy among the entering classes of (unselective) public high schools that regularly send some students to the top universities?</p>
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But what's really wrong about that quote is the first and last part. In my experience, the elite private school curricula are all about maximizing the chances for students to get into elite colleges.
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<p>For the "average" student in their population, yes. Elite prep schools provide a lot of low-risk moderate-yield routes to college, ranging from the curriculum itself to integration of application process (essays etc) into the senior year activities to distinguished teams in boutique sports (fencing, golf, whatever). This is good for people who need a school that might turn bronze or silver into gold, so to speak. People on a different admissions path, such as the upper levels of science and math competition winners, come overwhelmingly from public high schools. Lately there is a trend toward more of them coming from public magnet schools. But other than the national schools like Exeter, the super-elite privates account for very little of that top performance.</p>
<p>For some data on admission below the top X percent, see the "Facts and Figures" section of Brown admissions web site. The number outside the top 5 students or the top 5 percent of their high schools is surprisingly high. Higher than Harvard, but instructive nonetheless.</p>
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[Natl Merit] Commended Student is in the top 5 % of all test takers.
So-- If 50 % of the graduating class from an elite HS is designated with the Commended or semi/finalist status, then I will concede that it is possible that the top 50 % at top private HS's are equivalent to the top 5 to 8 % at the neighborhood local HS.
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<p>Commended is 2-3 percent of the test takers. I was not able to find the numbers for any NYC private prep schools, but Harvard-Westlake reports 100 or more students per year with some form of "National Merit recognition" (apparently this is commended or better) from an enrollment of under 300 students per class. So for them the ratio is 11-15 times better than the national rate. Assuming some rough comparability between Harvard-Westlake's clientele and that of the best NYC prep schools, a factor of 10 between the latter and public schools seems like a good first estimate.</p>