I think Mcat2 was making more of a comparison between some Taiwanese groups’ perception of Japanese colonialism and those of other Asian societies. Many Taiwanese do perceive Japanese colonialist occupation in much more benign or sometimes even rose-colored light than their counterparts in other Asian societies. In the process, they seemed to have forgotten how brutal the Imperial Japanese military was for the first decade or so of occupation or how fierce the guerrilla resistance was to the point the military needed more than a decade to “pacify” Taiwan between 1895-1915 or so.
Some including some current senior politicians within the Taiwanese-leaning DPP party openly support the Japanese extreme right wing colonialist apologia and join them in supporting or even visiting the Yasukuni Shrine where 14 Class A Japanese War Criminals like Hideki Tojo are enshrined.
Also, while often not stated, one possible factor for the 228 incident was the mutual contempt between the Taiwanese elite/intelligentsia whose positions and benefits were derived from the Japanese colonialist order and contempt for the Chinese brought about by Japanese colonialist propaganda and her weakness in the face of colonialism and the KMT’s view of the Taiwanese…especially the local elite/intelligensia as being Japanese collaborators/sympathizers. There’s some truth to this even with some current Taiwanese political and economic elites. For instance, the Koos Group was founded by Koo Hsien-jung(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koo_Hsien-jung), a wealthy influential local businessman who opened the gates of Taipei to the Japanese armed forces in 1895 and whose family benefited from collaboration with Japanese colonial rulers. Lee-Teng Hui’s father was a police official under the Japanese occupation and he and his brother VOLUNTEERED for the imperial Japanese armed forces during the period when there wasn’t an imposed draft there. Moreover, his brother rose to be a Senior Petty officer in the IJN and Lee himself ended the war as an commissioned IJA officer The Japanese Empire didn’t start implementing the draft in Taiwan until sometime in mid-late 1944 onwards. Several Taiwanese volunteer servicemen in the Imperial Japanese armed forces participated in atrocities with several being indicted and/or convicted of Class B & C war crimes.
Those factors likely played a role in the strong animus many KMT and Chinese Mainlanders had towards the local Taiwanese elite along with Imperial Japanese military volunteers. A few years ago, the BBC ran a special article on Taiwanese volunteers in the Imperial Japanese military forces and how they were perceived and treated by the KMT and Chinese Mainlanders in Taiwan and sometimes abroad after WWII. Former Imperial Japanese military commissioned officers like the Taiwanese Imperial Japanese Army Air Force pilot interviewed in the article were particularly singled out for scorn and discriminatory treatment in postwar life.
I am quite aware of the 228 event, and the suffering of the majority of educated elites (could be labeled as an elite just because of having received high school education). But every change of government could mostly result in a blood shed and the severity of blood shed is relative. (BTW, I heard of this and I think there could be some truth of this: It is because of break of Korea War and the subsequent patrol of the Taiwan Strait that the US indirectly gave the “blessing” to Chia-Kai Shek to start the bruttle “white horror” and the US “looked at the other way” and would not interfere: "purging any potential communist sympathizers? Great, this was what the US was actively doing as well around that time. During the period when the west were very concerned (and fearful) about the extreme left like communists, the west including the US supported many many dictators around the world as long as they were allies to be on the western world side. Isn’t it true that even Saddam Hussein was a favored leader of the US and Rumsfeld shook hands with him? So was the dictator in Iran which could result in the repercussion in that region even to today. This was why during The Arab Springs the US was not that enthusiastic about supporting them even though that movement was arguably a democratic movement.)
But compared to what people suffered under Mao, I guess most Chinese would still consider Chia Kai-Shek’s “damage” to people’s livelihood was less severe.
Comparing to the more sever oppression of Japanese in S. Korea and later major Korean war in the land of Korea, the suffering of Koreas were likely greater in comparison. An evidence for this is that there are more Korean babies/orphans adopted by countries like the US right after Korea war.
Not sure about the part about the Korean War giving Chiang “permission” for the anti-communist purge. It was already well underway in the mid-late '40s before the Korean War was on the horizon.
The US Occupation authorities in Japan were already starting to purge Communists and perceived Communist sympathizers around the same period in the “turn-back” phase because of concerns about a Communist takeover in Japan after initially welcoming them as a means to open up democratic political participation to all interested individuals/groups who weren’t associated with the old colonialist militarist social order. One unfortunate side-effect of this “turn back” policy was that the occupation authorities ended up bringing back many politicians and officials who were Japanese militarists. One notorious example was Nobosuke Kishi who despite being an indicted Class A War criminal for his role as a colonial official in the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo ended up being the Japanese PM in the late '50s/early '60s. He also happens to be the grandfather of the current PM.
As a result, Japan is still having serious issues with senior politicians including several in the current Japanese administration who openly deny or otherwise severely downplay the murderous atrocity-laden colonialist militarist Japanese Empire and attempt to impose it on the Japanese educational system despite the best efforts of the Japanese teachers union and most mainstream Japanese historians/academics to oppose them.
My guess is that in the US, by default of the preponderance of everyone dealing with white people in day to day life, and the saturation of white people in the media, everyone is inured to being around white people. White people are the archetypal Americans. So other races are probably less likely to take issue w having a white roommate, neighbor, etc.
There are a certain subset of White-Americans…mostly hetero males from reports and my own observations who not only would date Asians/Asian-Americans, but would actively seek them out. Sometimes to reportedly sickeningly creepy extremes. There’s also reportedly a subset of hetero Asian/Asian-American women who make it a point of only dating White males while holding disparaging attitudes towards their familial culture and even other Asians, especially Asian males* which has aroused some angst within some sections of the Asian/Asian-American community.
The seeking to creepy extremes among a subset of hetero White males was such a serious issue at my undergrad back in the mid-late '90s one dorm centered on Asian Studies actually screened for this from White male students applying to live there due to numerous prior issues/complaints of sexual harassment from Asian/Asian-American women in the dorm.
Never encountered this myself as the only Asian-Americans I've met who are openly disparaging of their familial culture of origin or other Asian/Asian-Americans are all males including several highly assimilated upper-middle class Asian-American colleagues and an acquaintance who is unfortunately ashamed of his racial background. I minimize my association with them as I find their negative attitudes towards their own familial culture and others who share their racial background to be offputting and just as unhealthy to be around as hanging out with cranky folks who never have anything good to say about anyone or anything.
@gmt007 , get what you are saying. I’m not sure any of those things would register for me with my white S’s either. But I do think it depends on how Americanized a person is. I think the more “different” people are, the harder it is, culturally, I mean. I’m not sure the race is the issue in and of itself?
@mcat2 the U.S. was not only complicit but actively supporting the kmt in Taiwan, of course. For years and years.
And didn’t much care what was happening to the Taiwanese under their rule.
The Japanese occupation is still seen by many as a more efficient, less corrupt, occupying force than the mainland Chinese after the revolution, but certainly that is not an opinion shared by all. Perhaps mainly by those who benefited more under that one than the kmt one. Or those who appreciated the educational and infrastructure improvements made by the Japanese.
@HRSMom, Racism is looking at a race and estimating how they, as a group, are different or similar to oneself, then applying that to each individual in the race. There is no way to figure out how “Americanized” a person is without deeply interacting with them. Asking an Asian person where they are “really” from precludes that deep interaction and is generally racist. It’s commonplace as well.
By the way, what does it mean to be Americanized? In my experience, this is a vast, vast country and there are lots of different themes of Americanization. What is Americanized to African Americans, for example, will likely not be the same for Whites or Hispanics. Jewish people have their own identities as do Catholics. The South is different from the North, the border states different from the center of the country. Hawaii and Puerto Rico have their own customs.
So, what exactly is Americanization? Perhaps someone should publish a guide. I took the citizenship interview and there was nothing there about socio-cultural norms. Instead, it highlighted that America is a melting pot that is constantly changing with each new influx of immigrants.
Asian Americans are the fastest growing minority group. Even within Asian Americans, Koreans are different from Chinese are different from Indians are different from Pakistanis/Bangladeshis. Why not celebrate all the cultures in the country rather than a WASPy notion of Americanization?
This is highly dependent on geographic area, SES, and/or degree of assimilation. Many older relatives and their kids assimilated so quickly into upper/upper-middle class near/all-White mainstream suburban life that they exhibit cultural affinities/attitudes much more closely aligned with second generation or later Americans*. Several of them also had no issues marrying outside their race/ethnic group.
It’s one reason why some were able to make observations about how differently their racially mixed children were treated based on whether they “looked foreign” or looked “real murikan”.
I.e. The families with parents who prioritized dinner parties and sports over academics to the point one son's excessive focus on partying/beer meant he almost flunked out several times and a couple of other cousins were kicked out of doctoral/professional grad programs because those parties/sports took too much time away from the academic/work requirements of those programs. I actually got into a loud argument with one such aunt who felt "every undergrad needs a TV in his/her dormroom" and felt I was "too serious" for disagreeing right before starting college. As some less assimilated Asian-American neighbors of theirs, relatives, and my friends all noted...they certainly don't fit the Asian/Asian-American parent stereotypes.
@ChangLa I think we are not supposed to call it a melting pot anymore…PC thing. I’m not sure “Salad bowl” is any better tho.
I’m not sure how you would have any way to figure out anything about someone without deeply interacting with them…Some of the folks you describe seem like idiots…and yes, no one denies they exist! And ask stupid questions.
As far as Americanized, I see kids that are totally like other kids here (perhaps they are not at home tho), and those who are not at all a part of the salad bowl, bc they stay separate…harder to get to know.
I have met quite many people from Taiwan who still have this perception even to this day. (I am not judgmental here and just state the fact here.) This is arguably what the segment of those on the kmt side hate the most and the people (and especially the PRC government) in the mainland of China hate the most.
At one time, I had a business trip to that part of world. The local taxi driver, out of the blue, started to tell me how “bad” kmt and its government is. I think there is no chance such a person will ever change his hostile attitude toward this ruling party at the time. The problem is: There are still a large segment of population who held this attitude. On the other hand, I heard right now there are already over 10 percents of Taiwanese (millions) who migrate to the mainland of China to seek the economic/job opportunity. Also, there is some district in some cities in China where most residents living there used to be ranked soldiers/generals who used to be loyal to kmt. The relation between the communist party and kmt, and the relation between the “mainlanders” and the Tauwanese have undergone many strange transformations in the past century. (But the main theme is: When you are in doubt about what is happening, just find out how the money flows. It will tell the truth. Others being said done are just smoke there to fool you.)
No wonder the US is quite reluctant to sell the more advanced weapons to Taiwan, but is more free to sell them to either Japan and S. Korea. I do not know if this is true: Someone from the mainland of China once claimed that because the US transferred so much military and industrial technology to countries like S. Korea (in the past, Japan), that country could turn such technologies into commercial use. This is why their companies essentially dominate much of the cell phone business except for Apple in such a short time. (It is said China has been trying to emulate the successful strategies like S. Korea and Japan once had been relying on - the most crucial part of the strategy could be to keep the large consumer market in the US open to them for the benefit of developing their economy and technology – and they have no lack of pro-business Americans as their “friends” who have a lot of influences on our government and/or Congress to make sure this will happen. This is how our society works. There are reasons why the leaders from China almist always visited US business leaders first before they visited our elected politicians. This is because, to some extent, the latter will most likely keep the interest of the former in their mind. Please the businessmen in a country like the US first, everything else will be much easier! Oh…this may be one of the reasons why they keep buying our government’s debt – to enable us to keep buying their products and have a favorable policy toward them. They sacrifice by polluting their land in the process and their people work for us in the sweatshop over there so they do not get it easily. (And their lucky few who harvest the gold keep moving their hard-earned and/or easy-earned money to inflate the housing price in the major cities in California. So the money still turns around and get back to the US except the owner of the money has changed the hand – it fats the business people on both side of Pacific Oceans. Am I too extreme in this view? I might be.)
The kmt are certainly the party promoting unification with China now. For business reasons? Maybe. But I think they also just feel a greater connection to China than the Taiwanese who were living in Taiwan before the Chinese revolution do. I don’t know what the current feeling about independence is in Taiwan, I assume the majority wild dull prefer it.
Of course the KMT wants reunification, but on its own terms. I can see a scenario down the road where the CCP invites the KMT back to form a ‘United Front’ party to govern a unified China. The KMT leadership is very cozy with the CCP, and both can trace their origins to the KMT under Sun Yat-Sen.
It (being independent) is a dream that is not easy to come true! Maybe it could come true when the US is 10 or even 100 times stronger than China?
Right now, it is somewhat like a card played (or really can’t be played) by both China and the US/Japan (Japan has always been a puppet country which follows the US closely after WWII. S. Korea is somewhat like Japan in this aspect but the China market is too juicy for them – thus its leader visited China in their Oct. 1 national event, which is by and large a milirary power show-off event toward the Japan mostly, and secondarily, the US behind the Japan. Shortly after, Japan started to militarize themselves – with the nod by the US?)