<p>We have moved four times in the last 15 years (my husbands job relocates him) We have aways however been in the Northeast, mostly the Metropolitan area. My oldest is graduating this year, from a diverse high school. So between this and my other two kids' other schools which also represented many ethnic groups, I noticed from the very start, elementary school, how these kids seem to have a head start, they are the ones who, like a horse out of the running gate, seem to have a leg up on everyone. I mean I remember even in 2nd grade, my son was best friends with a Chinese kid, an Indian kid and an American. The Chinese and Indian kids did not do a lot of the sports, activities, that the Americans seem to participate in, but were so far ahead in reading, math,etc........of course this just amplified as they got older.
Same with my second and my third child. All through their respective schools, it was always these same kids receiving the highest marks, accomplishing things with music and math that most Americans just didn't or couldn't. My son while in middle school, was a great little chess player, he was on the schools chess team, but after playing for a year, it was those Chinese, Korean and Indian kids who went on to win the competitions most of the time. At that time, my son stared on his little league team and played travel soccer, but I then found out his friends did none of that but in fact got private lessons from a local chessmaster. I often wondered, who did the "right thing"? I think I did because my son ended up being well rounded and had a lot of athletic prowess on the fields, he loved playing sports. The two kids I referred to above though, are now both nationally ranked chess champs and this is clearly a nice little addition to any college app. This got my mind thinking...............so, my question is how does this come to be? How do they get to be such high achievers from the earliest ages?</p>
<p>Is it that they are genetically smarter? Predispositioned to be able to study for x hours a day even at an early age when most kids want to go out and throw a ball or play barbie?
Is it what is instilled in them from an early age? Is it the drive of the parents and no nonsense attitude/bar held high that is established at age 5?</p>
<p>What is it? I have always been fascinated and curious, clearly there are so many different groups represented on this board that I though perhaps I could get some insight into this question. I really commend the work ethic and drive that it obvouisly takes to continue to dominate (not all the time but most of the time from my experience) their schools/classes. So if you have any input to this, I would really love to hear about it. Thanks:)</p>
<p>I'd say I was pretty typical Asian. Every Asian boy (almost) plays piano, violin, and has tutors. A lot of Chinese parents just send their kids to Saturday school or have tutors. That's probably why. They also tend to be more disciplined I'd say. I don't think either way of parenting is wrong. Just let your kid do what he loves. May it be sports or whatever.</p>
<p>I think the Chinese IQ is generally higher on average. But the Chinese education system (the one in China) is a lot different from US.</p>
<p>Parents from east Asia and from south Asia generally take substantially more initiative to supplement their children's education than parents born in the United States. The recent immigrants from the newly industrializing countries are part of the "brain drain," that is they are among the smartest people from their countries of birth and have an unusual degree of interest in academics compared to most of their countrymen who didn't immigrate to the United States.</p>
<p>I never played piano. I played violin at school but never had private lessons and quit once I got into high school. I never had private tutors. I did go to Chinese school on Sundays and they would have elective classes <em>kind of</em> aimed towards SAT math/English but I don't think they helped me too much. I was never beaten as a child to make me study more. I had tons of toys as a kid. I don't know where I got my drive. I had horrible grades before fourth grade. Then again, I wasn't good at anything before I got to my uber-competitive high school and saw all the Asians who were better than me at everything.</p>
<p>It would be hard to prove any genetic differences, and I doubt any such differences exist. But if they do exist, those differences AND differences in perceived discipline of Asian American students and so forth probably stem from the Asian immigration patterns of the 70s and 80s. Many of the Chinese that immigrated, for example, in that time were students looking for higher education and many decided to not return to China. They value education highly. Many immigrants who were not educated had to work hard to find a good living as all sorts of laborers. They have a good work ethic. Combine this with the cultural emphasis on education (dating all the way back to Confucius) and you have a society that puts the importance of hard work in academics above everything else. </p>
<p>My theory is that this phenomenon of a model minority is not solely from intrinsic differences from the culture or race but from self-selection from an society already kind of emphasizing education.</p>
<p>Asian parents certainly hold the bar high for their children for cultural reasons. At Asian parties they like to compare their children with those of the other parents. And that kind of competitiveness leads to stuff like "Hey, David, your friend Tom got a 2300 on his SAT. Why can't you get a 2300???" or "Hey, my colleague Li Hua's kid got Intel semifinalist. <em>NUDGE (as if to say, that'll be YOU next year, RIGHT?</em>"</p>
<p>The Chinese education is a lot different from the one in the US. For one, they are much more competitive. They place much emphasis on competitions like the international olympiads. College admissions are based on one massive test, which ends up emphasizing rote learning, unfortunately. Hardly anyone at school (teachers) care about our SATs while all the teachers teach to the gao kao in China. They accelerate the high school curriculum so they can have their last year just for review. Educated Chinese immigrant parents lived through this and survived the competition between them and millions of other people their age, so they carry a sense of competitiveness all the time and that's passed on to their children.</p>
<p>My guess is that this effect will be largely diminished for third generation children.</p>
<p>Chronicidal: That has got to be one of the best and most complete responses on this topic I have ever seen here on CC. Thanks for your well thought out post.</p>
<p>And as a cautionary note against accepting sweeping generalizations about Asian applicants, it's worth noting that the UCs have begun collecting more specific breakdowns on the ethnicity of Asian applicants. Many Asian students, in fact, have not enjoyed any particular cultural or educational advantages, yet suffer from the over-achieving Asian stereotype.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Advocates for Asian-American students in recent years have repeatedly called for more differentiation among racial and ethnic groups. Classifying third- and fourth-generation Chinese Americans with recent arrivals from Vietnam doesnt make much sense, they have argued, and hides the realities that many Asian Americans are educationally disadvantaged.
<p>I think that the comparison is apples to oranges.</p>
<p>If you visited China or India, you would see many unemployed, lazy, dishonest, disinterested people, mediocre students; basically, a cross-section of the local population there is not going to be very different from a cross-section of Americans here.</p>
<p>However, you are looking at people who have given up everything, risked a lot, and come to a new country for the future of their children. Therefore not only are they among the brightest in their country, but they are also going to be very much more driven and focused on achieving 'the dream'.</p>
<p>They have sacrificed much, and expect to reap the rewards. Their children will probably turn out to be more relaxed parents, and their grandchildren will definitely be closer to your definition of 'Americans' who are more involved in sports and leisure activities.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My guess is that this effect will be largely diminished for third generation children.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Interesting. This held true for third-generation Jewish immigrants. There's an adage regarding first, second and third-gen Jewish immigrants: Grandpa is a plumber, Dad is a doctor, and the son is a poet. Lol.</p>
<p>Tokenadult, "Brain drain" is probably the most important yet under noted factor in disparities among white and Asian children. The fact is, the Asian children in America are the children of the most qualified from Asia. However, this rule only applies to immigrants within the last thirty or so years.</p>
<p>mj93: Never heard that, but reading this thread made me think......Jewish Immigrants also placed great emphasis on education, BUT they did not overwhelmingly believe in supplementing the American education system....Amazing how successful they were without continuous tutors, Saturday school, etc.....Slightly different philosophy......And for a different twist:</p>
<p>Grandpa is a plumber, Dad is a doctor, daughter is popular......LOL (sorry, I just had to say that)</p>
<p>Aww man the same question all over again..ive heard these questions ever since i was old enough to give an elaborate explaination on.</p>
<p>I am Indian(Hindu) and well its funny you should say i never liked chess, had a problem with reading music(couldnt figure out why) hated math, but extremely easy for me, LOVED ENGLISH/PHILOSOPHY, Artistically inclined, and better yet extremely sportive and social...the thing is your trying to say that "we get some sort of head start" well reason why is because we are pressured by our parents to figure out what we want to do with our lives by the time we are 6(for most cases)-for me it was being a doctor. Our parents put a burden onto our shoulders at a young age so we can understand what responsibility and discipline is-this is our head start. The fact that they want to help us achieve the best by being their and helping us as well is another key fact-most asian families have at least 1 parent at home everyday guiding them. If you are wondering about Chinese/Koreans, their parents do slightly the samething except higher multiple tutours instead of using the parents mainly because of time management. In an Indian household, the female role model is not allowed to work(traditionally speaking, times have changed), and so she helps with the developmental process of the child(ren)).</p>
<p>You shouldn't compare us to other kids really lol...i mean truely if you want to know some of these "high achiever, don't play sports, have tutours, engage in chess and music to a high extent, are sometimes the people who later in life become socially declined-which is the greatest aspect needed to being a doctor/some branches of engineering. </p>
<p>So, your son doesn't have to be compared to these people, aslong as he can make a decent grade(for me a decent is a A-i know im stereotyping myself) and carry on extracurriculars he loves, write a nice essay, he will be a flawed individual but thats what everyone in society can relate to...we dont want flawless, we want flawed because in the end everyone is flawed....and these highachievers have a flawless facade...</p>
<p>So there you go....the main part to your question is....we got pushed at an early age to strive for the best, to try to be the best, by hearing stories of our parents achieving greatness in school, principally in physics,maths.<strong>hint hint- wheres the english?</strong></p>
<p>Also, IQ is overrated...so the person on this thread who said"Chinese IQ tend to be higher" is quite wrong...if you were smart enough, you'd know when the IQ test first came out that some of the worlds leading scientists did score about an average of 100-110...while the doctors did score IN THE BEGINNING about 110-120 which isnt alot....this IQ stuff is a number that isnt worth anything...same with GPA these numbers that try to grade you, in the end, will become useless...</p>
<p>The way i see it is this....If you can explain the material you've learnt to a 5th grader, your a person who understands and grasps the concept and will become the far more better person in life then lets say the person who can memorize, yet cannot theorize or "think".....and so ctmomof3, this also goes to show why most asian kids struggle in Artistic classes like english/philosophy-they can't go off on tangents, relate indirect pieces of theories, in all they cant THINK to problem-solve..............IF YOU WANT TO KNOW ON AVERAGE, MOST UNIVERSITY STUDENTS WHO ARE ASIAN AND INDIAN ARE NOT THE ONES GETTING THE BEST GRADES...mainly cuz the way they learnt....math is the biggest one...after 2nd year university it becomes theoritical math and calculations is no longer needed...this is when most people struggle, and where some people(like me) love to just explain why why why why, without using numbers...</p>
<p>The academic success of Jews is ridiculous. 30% at Harvard and 20% at every Ivy pretty much.</p>
<p>What makes this crazy is the disproportionality to population. For example, there are only 2% Jews in the US, and yet Jews are overrepresented at Ivy's by a factor more than 10.</p>
<p>Even more crazy is the Nobel disproportionality. Jews make up about .2% of the worlds population, yet they account for about 30% of the Nobel Prizes ever won. That means jews have a overrepresentation by a factor of 150.</p>
<p>However, I am by NO means saying that jews are genetically inclined in anyway for this type of thing. Genetics prove that the only genetic difference between races is a single factor among thousands that tint skill color in different directions.</p>
<p>It is ALL cultural. Emphasis on education goes a long way. Same applies to asians.</p>
<p>Success pretty much always come to hard work. Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Warren Buffet, and many other greats spent thousands of hours of intense and smart training to get to the prowess they are at today.</p>
<p>Since Asians and Jews both have hard working cultural emphasis on education, they are able to do well.</p>
<p>(Another factor is that the Asians we see in america are usually in the top 1 or 2% of the ones in China. So we're seeing the best of the best, in both worth ethic and intelligence).</p>
<p>Two other things I want to share, one is a book that a fellow mom gave me, who happens to be asian:) Thought for anyone interested on this subject, that you might be interested to read, I just started it and find fascinating already.</p>
<p>"Top of the Class: How Asian Parents Raise High Achievers -- and How You Can Too"</p>
<p>Also you brought up Confucianism but Consucianism may reflect the genetic character of the people, instead of vice versa. However I think the principle of this will die out within 3-4 generations, and it is not compatible with American ideals for the most part. I also think that most asians are brought up to know that being a student and a successful one at that is their utmost priority and they start with that mentality whether here or there. I am not implying this is the case for ALL asians but as a society in general.</p>
<p>Confucious by no means reflects the genetic character of asians. Nor does any great man/woman of African American, Caucasian, Aryan, Indian, etc, descent reflect the genetic character of their races.</p>
<p>Race, genetically, does not play any factor in success. It is purely CULTURAL. Correlation, NOT causation.</p>
<p>I actually felt kind of offended when I read this post. It is pure stereotype to say that Asian kids don't do anything extracurricular. I love playing badminton and am currently the captain of the badminton team. I don't play the piano or violin but instead I play the drums and have a rock band. Heck, my friends and I even dance to NSYNC songs at our school's homecoming skits and dance shows. So to say that Asians don't participate in the activities that "Americans" do is completely false and quite insulting IMO. </p>
<p>Now that I've said what I needed to say, to answer your question: Asians are raised in quite a different atmosphere than others. Their parents push them hard, but that doesn't account 100% for the fact that they do well academically. Many times, Asians are competitive and push themselves to achieve better things. It's the work ethic that gets us ahead, not genetics. And that's that.</p>
<p>its true that a lot of asian parents are pushy not just in america but in india and china itself(i live in india)
but i think the reason for this is that-
in places like india and china- the competition is tooooooo much. the population is so large and the seats in colleges and jobs are soo limited,
parents tend to push their children into becoming achievers.
also in places like india and china- for most people -its either get educated or be unemployed.
they are not able to leave these tendencies when they go abroad
in places like america even if someone doesn't go through college, he is still able to live a decent life.
i think thats the reason asians have become so pushy.
but i have seen that most of the times the children usually break through their parents pushiness when they grow up.
(but chess tutor does seem a little toooo wierd to me)</p>
<h1>1 - China and India are big nations. Competition is a lot fiercer there. The Indian Institute of Technology is way harder to get into than Havard or MIT because of sheer quantity.</h1>
<h1>2 - It's hard to come to the US, so only the best and brightest get here. The illiterate peasant farmer in China has no chance of coming, unlike the situation for Mexican illegal immigrants. My dad secretly stole books from Communist book burning piles in China to educate himself and worked extremely hard when the colleges reopened in order to come to the US.</h1>
<h1>3 - The so-called "strict Asian parent culture". As a teenager still "discovering my identity", I'm thinking about this point. However, I have noticed two characteristics among my Chinese and Indian friends that I would say make up this "Asian parent" thing. Number one is that they are very strict. You can think of them as the same strictness as a traditional rural southern family. Tough, no "touchy-feely" kind of stuff. Number two is that they view their child's success in school to be just as important and part of their strict, traditionalist parenting, with just the same necessity as putting food on the plate for the family. Because of this, they go to great lengths to sacrifice for their children in education, and are very strict about it.</h1>
<h1>4 - From my personal perspective, being a relatively high achiever, I see no difference from myself and other ambitious teenagers. It's a personal drive and happiness from achieving my full potential. However, I do know some kids with high GPAs and SATs who are absolutely miserable with their parents' absurd strictness and want to leave ASAP.</h1>
<p>Again, keep in mind that these are stereotypes and it would be stupid to think that all Chinese and Indian parents are like this. Additionally, each family who falls into these categories are idiosyncratic in their own ways and vary with their practices. I personally do not conform to a lot of stereotypes. (i.e. Math and Science bore me. I love politics and can probably carry on the best debates of all my friends.) However, a lot of stereotypes are based on phenomenon in reality, and I'm just trying to describe the phenomenon. (i.e. Black people aren't always the best at sports, but if you look at professional sports, it seems like it)</p>