Beware of academic programs that brag about all of their “stars.” It is possible that they don’t routinely teach undergrads.
Admission to grad school is based on GRE scores, not the name of the undergraduate school. Go to Temple.
My D is finishing up a fabulous year at Temple & just today got approved for her $4000 summer stipend that will fund a trip to an a cappella camp and an otherwise unpaid internship at a choral music festival. Grand total cost to us for the year (housing, books, travel to/from San Diego at each break) ? About $17K & now she’s getting $4K of that back in the stipend. I’m blown away by what a bargain we are getting from Temple & D is loving it.
Well, GPA helps a lot too. Also faculty recommendations.
I’'m hoping @GetrudeMcFuzz has PM’d the OP at the same time she posted here. I can’t think of anything that will be more valuable than an opportunity for the OP’s daughter to have a chat with Gertrude’s daughter - maybe she can also make a connection with a Gallatin student via CC to get some recent inside views from actual students.
Only the second half of this statement is true, and it’s still a little misleading. The first half is completely wrong, at least as far as PhD programs are concerned. GRE scores have relatively little to do with admission to high-quality PhD programs. They have to be good enough – which is pretty high – but people with high GREs are rejected all the time in favor of people with somewhat lower GREs.
What’s critical in grad school admissions is a top-quality Statement of Purpose and effective faculty recommendations. Going to a college with a good name doesn’t guarantee either, but going to a college with a strong department that everyone respects certainly gives you a leg up on both if you take advantage of it.
GRE’s are used in most academic fields to weed out the kids who clearly won’t be able to cut it. But the test isn’t hard enough to be useful beyond that.
And there are clearly schools whose academic depth in certain departments, fields, or sub-fields is not strong enough to get a kid admitted to a competitive grad program. Not talking about getting a doctorate in counseling or a program which funds few students and will basically take most applicants if they can pay. But a funded, academic PhD program is not going to lose sleep over the GRE’s (as long as they are fine)- what will count is WHO is writing the recommendations, and the depth of study in that field.
I think a 800 in math GRE was a stepping stone for those in so 's field.
PHD programs care very much what classes you took (how many of them advanced, how many of them in your field/related to your field), what your GPA is, what your jr/sr GPA is, what your “subject” GPA is; your GRE score ( a little, but less than the rest); whether you’ve written a thesis, worked on research, presented it at a conference (which kind: local, national?), published it; experience in the field; letters of recommendation; ability to articulate why you want to attend this program at this particular school and with what research project in mind.
What will be most useful is how much support you’re likely to get for these goals.
Being in the Honors Program at Temple, your odds of getting a good mentor are higher than at NYU.
You should investigate: how many advanced philosophy classes are offered at Temple and how many students are in them (ideal would be 8-14); whether honors students can take graduate classes their senior year; what the philosophy majors did after graduating;
Another vote for Temple. Though I’d encourage you to go check out the area. It isn’t gritty like the rest of Philadelphia – it is very much the poorest and most dangerous part of the city. The campus has expanded a lot lately and I’m sure they invest a lot in security – but it is nothing like NYU.
With the amount you’re saving on tuition – frankly she could live in Center City where she could get her fill of small restaurants, cafes etc. and just take the train to school; she could do a yr abroad in Europe; unpaid internships in Philadelphia or Manhattan.
Frankly I wouldn’t spend 70+k a yr on a degree like philosophy – it isn’t exactly a high paying field even if she sticks with it and everything works out for her with a tenured teaching position one day. And frankly she’s 17-18 – how committed is she to philosophy really, having probably taken only 1 or 2 courses in it most likely?? It’s very likely she decides to go down a different road and one that requires a grad/professional degree (not a fully funded PhD) – your savings will come in handy for that.
I’m not an expert in PhD programs. However, my understanding is that many university departments are severely limited in the number of PhD candidates they can accept, because they are expected to provide all of the funding per student. If an applicant was able to say to a department - I need free tuition, but my parents still have a 529 fund full of money that I can use to pay my living expenses, a department might be able to happily accept an additional student that year.
I have thought about this thread a bit. I hope OP understands that even graduates of great philosophy Ph.D. programs don’t get jobs (Princeton, Harvard, Yale). It is a long way from an undergraduate degree to a Ph.D., and most students find other things to do along the way. From my point of view, Temple makes sense in that it is free, and if your daughter truly stars at philosophical thinking, the department should be good enough to launch her into a graduate program.
You might also check the number of tenured women faculty (associate professors and professors) in each department as philosophy is notoriously hard on women, and she would want a department with mentors.
@ charliesch: sure, some depts would be happy to take on a full pay PHD student. BUT no one will take them seriously, because if you’re worth it, you get a fellowship, a TAship, a stipend, something that makes you “not full pay”. A person who would fully fund their PHD would not find any job (it’s already very very hard to find a job, even non tenure track, with a “legit” PHD).
So there wouldn’t necessarily be an expense for the PHD (in philosophy but also English and many other subjects which appreciate philosophy majors). However, unless OP’s D is sure to want a try at a career in academia, law school or MBA programs -both of which like philosophy majors with work experience - might be a possibility and the 529 will come in handy then.
I’d side with Temple, especially if they offer graduate courses in philosophy (taking 1-2 of those as an undergraduate is always a good sign for graduate programs.) She can get into top law schools with a 3.8 from Temple, just as she would from NYU, and this way she’ll be able to pay for law school with what’s left from the 529 after paying room&board and studying in Rome and/or at UEA in Norwich (ranked #6 in the UK for philosophy according to the guardian leagues tables).
Then perhaps starting a PHD a NYU, and seeing at the Master’s level if it’s worth it to continue (for a 1 in 10 change at a job in academia) or if it’d be better to take the Top 20 law school route.
Yes, I would guess that philosophy would be among the disciplines that would be hardest to get a tenure track position. You might even have trouble getting part-time adjunct positions, because community colleges, career-oriented colleges, and for-profits don’t offer many philossophy courses. In any case, be open minded and flexible because most students change their majors anyway.
Steve Martin in the 1980s talked about the philosophy degree he earned in college. He said that with most majors, it doesn’t make a difference, because you soon forget what you learned. However, with philosophy “it screws you up for life!”
What’s more interesting is for top 4 Philosophy PhD, most aren’t from HYP:
Rutgers
NYU
Princeton
UMich
This would not be a discussion in my house either, but it would be NYU. It’s a much better school with more talented students academically. Go to the best school you can and avoid a lifetime of regret that you had the ability to go to a great school but picked the cheaper short-term option. I think NYU would work out financially in the long run and the self-esteem and relationships are priceless. I know this is a minority opinion, but don’t settle.
Interesting @em2424 – I’d agree with you 100% if the acceptance were to Stern or even for something like pre med bc the financial payoff for the student would be there. But a 17 or 18 yr old who thinks she’ll be a philosophy prof? Chances are she won’t be – bc she’ll either discover something else along the way or bc it won’t work out (not being rude but academia has gotten tougher and tougher and for most it doesn’t work out that you get a fully tenured professor position at a respectable college/university – most end up making ends meet as an adjunct). Even if it does somehow work out – decades from now – you’re not exactly talking about a high paying field. I just don’t see what the financial reward will be for the money spent.
As for relationships – I typically agree that alumni networks are important, but it’s never been my impression from anyone who went to NYU that the alumni are tight in any way; I don’t get the sense that NYU grads consider NYU to be a common bond in a way that would encourage them to help a young alum 10 or 20 yrs from now. It seems like a very “individualistic” environment where people go to class, do their own internships/pursue professional opportunities bc there are so many in NYC even for students, and maybe find some friends to party/go clubbing with in their downtime. Then when school ends, people move on. It gives off a different vibe than other schools where people congregate on campus all the time, eat most meals in dining halls, go to football games every Saturday etc. – those are the kinds of things that tend to bond people to each other and to their school long term.
@aj725 I don’t know enough about the OP, so you might be right in this case, but my big point is that I see so many on CC that are way too short sighted and conservative about choosing a college based on finances. This is the one time in life you need to swing for the fences, go for the absolute best school you can, and figure out any way to make it happen. Don’t pass up a great opportunity now for the very uncertain chance you might have to decide on graduate school down the road. It will be a lot easier to get into a good graduate school from a better undergrad school AND it will be easier to pay for it when the bill is due as a result of better credentials leading to better opportunities. Again, I know most people don’t think this way, but I also see aggressive risk-takers succeed financially and emotionally (the emotional part is what is not considered almost all of the time).
I get what @em2424 is saying. I’m all about the prestige schools too (which maybe isn’t something I want to admit on CC). BUT I think that college finances are a financial decision. Swinging for the fences makes perfect sense when it will put you in the position of getting better opportunities compared to the rest of the crowd and thus will enable you to come out further ahead. I definitely think people should do what they need to do if they get into a U.S. med school, a top 5 or 10 law school, b-schools like HBS, Stanford, Wharton etc. or undergrad b schools like Stern or Wharton bc those things WILL put you ahead – there are employers out there who don’t even consider you if you don’t have those names on your resume and those employers do tend to pay more. But NYU philosophy undergrad just isn’t on that list. And it isn’t invariable that you go to the best possible school now and that means you get the best opportunities. There are PLENTY of NYU grads (there are articles out there) that talk about 100k or 200k in debt for an undergrad degree in a random liberal art that is having them earning 40 or 50k.
@em2424 I appreciate your chiming in. I’ve stayed out of this conversation until now; my kids are full pay at two highly selective colleges. Given the “offers” they received from schools they never even applied to for close-to-full rides, I’m sure they could have gotten nice merit awards at various places. But my husband and I were gifted with great educations at our own UG schools, and we were happy to have saved all those years to offer the same to our kids. We have no regrets. I think back to an earlier comment-- lots of people who are full pay “leave money on the table”… just not in such an obvious way as in this instance. Otherwise NO ONE would be full pay at places like HPY, since presumably any of those kids could get significant merit money. Needless to say, plenty of people feel it is worth it. I don’t have a particular opinion on NYU as I’m not that familiar with it (or the philosophy area) but I don’t think “just take the money” is always the obvious best decision.
Unfortunately, NYU happens to be a seriously overrated school. It’s popularity stems more from its location than academic quality. I’d grant that it is probably academically stronger than Temple, but it isn’t the equivalent of an elite college either. Just because a college charges students $70K+ to attend doesn’t mean it’s worth that kind of money. We could debate about the more selective programs like Stern, but this is a student who would be attending Gallatin, So it really isn’t NYU vs. Temple, it’s NYU-Gallatin vs. Temple Honors. I really am not sure that Temple Honors wouldn’t look better to an employer or graduate admissions committee.