My take on this and from I know about NYU as I live in NY and our high school has many grads who select NYU. Younger d declined to apply there for this very reason alone. She did spend an overnight in a dorm near Union Square and did not care for it as the whole area was just so crazy crowded and busy and everyone spends a ton of money going out… very little dorm life. Many students are placed in housing in which you need to commute by subway. Truly some of the undergrad programs are outstanding while many are not and IMHO not worth the pricetag.
For what it’s worth we have friends in which son was philosophy major at Dartmouth, spent a semester abroad at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, travelled extensively and … is now an architect as he completed grad school at Rutgers/NJIT for an MA in Architecture after completing a portfolio.
My experience at Temple is that older d was in grad school at Tyler and also lived and worked as an adjunct in Philly as well as other art world related jobs. She loved her experience there and loved living in Philly where she had an entire row house with a back yard, basement and deck for about the same as her small one-bedroom apartment in Brooklyn. I would not be surprised if she and her boyfriend don’t end up back in Philly. I personally liked the Temple campus although I wasn’t there all that frequently. As an undergrad she had participated in the Temple Rome program, one of the most well-established study abroad programs in her field, more sought after than NYU by the way.
The area around Temple’s main campus is booming. There has been a tremendous improvement in the area in the last 20 years, with a substantial amount of new housing construction and rehab. However, it is still not a place for people who are uncomfortable with diverse cities, and certainly requires some street smarts.
I imagine one of the most frustrating situations would be to live in Manhattan, and have no money left to do anything there. I would much prefer to live elsewhere, and then have money to enjoy trips to NYC during weekends, or to sublease another student’s apartment in Manhattan or Brooklyn for a summer.
The Phila. Inquirer just had a feature article about the numbers of people who are fleeing NYC for Philadelphia, because they just can’t afford to live in NYC anymore.
It is an easy Megabus or train ride between Phila. and NYC. As of a few years ago, the trains were even cheaper if you used Septa to Trenton and NJ transit to NYC, instead of Amtrak.
I honestly think the allure of NYU for many 18 yr olds comes greatly from the number of big name entertainers and stars that have attended and may be attending.
I don’t think that this is just a question of Temple vs.NYU-- it is Temple Honors vs. NYU. If it were my kid I would be asking about some of the perks and benefits that come with the honors program. My guess is that there is going to be more of an opportunity for mentoring within that program. That is, a Temple Honors student might get the opportunity to work closely with a faculty member as an undergrad which would be inconceivable at NYU.
I did visit the Temple web site, and the Honors students have the option of living in a particular dorm – which most choose - and that suggests that the daughter would be with a cohort of like minded students.
The question isn’t whether one school is “worth” more than another: it is *how much more".
The daughter can get a pretty good education at NYU, but it’s not a world class education. It’s not the same as if her parents were looking at full pay at Yale vs. Temple. (And even so, full pay at an Ivy is pretty hefty).
Yes but the SAT scores and GPA of the NYU students is certainly higher than at Temple. It is not clear if how many “honors only” classes would be offered. Would the philosophy classes only have honors students? It seems from the comments here that some think a “better” school like Yale or maybe Tufts would be worth the money, but NYU probably not.
My son is at Temple. He did not have a distinguished school academic record, but scored 780 on his Critical Reading SAT. He can hold his own in any discussion with anyone.
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful responses…many good things to consider - thank goodness we have some time before making a decision. I will try to address some of the points raised above:
Yes, I agree it is an eclectic list of colleges and one that might not be the best for someone considering a career in academia, especially in philosophy (UVM though has a highly regarded undergraduate philosophy department - in fact recommended by several of the philosophy blogs cited above…and believe me, I did scour those blogs). Let’s just say there was a bit of last minuteness to it all because originally it was going to be NYU ED based on it being a philosophy powerhouse and some other personal factors in play at the time…None of that matters now as we are faced with the application choices made and the decisions received.
We know UVM well having lived in Burlington and although it has a good undergrad philosophy department she really wants a bigger city. UNH was just kind of because, but really never something that excited her. Temple got on the list because she liked the idea of Philadelphia (she really likes gritty) and knew some other kids who went there. Northeastern was kind of a mom idea (maybe not the best one?) So yes, those who say we could have crafted a different (better?) list if philosophy was/is the dream surely have a point. And yes, I am having some mom guilt right now!
Having said that, I agree with many who wonder if she will even end up pursuing this path in the end…there have been other paths and other ideas along the way and we have always encouraged her to be open to where her heart and her learning is taking her. I guess we are also, probably naively, believers in the idea of if there is a will, there is a way.
As to the money part, we (she) is fortunate to have a sizable 529 account through savings and some gifts…that is why we can even consider NYU at all…I fully recognize how privileged we are to be in the position of even being able to contemplate this choice.
As to the 71K figure…that was the total cost NYU quoted in her acceptance, including tuition, room and board, fees etc. I guess in my mind I was thinking 62 K based on what parents of last year’s accepted students had told me… So I probably was comparing apples to oranges but at any rate, it is still a lot of money! NYU said all costs where up 5% over last year.
Thanks again everyone…you are a remarkable crew and an amazing resource! Good luck to all of your sons and daughters! All will be well…
Do keep us updated with the decision process… which colleges your daughter crosses out first and why… which two remain… how you make the final determination…
Generally speaking, honors students at a larger university have opportunities to take upper level classes early on – either because of the honors status itself, or because students who qualify for honors status generally come in with AP credits or SAT/ACT scores high enough to allow them to waive out of many intro-level courses. When you combine the added perk of priority registration, it is very possible that an honors student at Temple could be signing up for an advanced level seminar while a student with similar interests at NYU is sitting in a large lecture hall for an intro level course. It may well be that the NYU prof has more impressive credentials, but strong credentials do not necessarily translate into great teaching skills.
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Added Note: I just saw from another thread that the OP’s daughter was accepted to NYU Gallatin. I had assumed it was CAS. The Gallatin program is different and may afford the daughter far more opportunity to work closely with profs, so some of the observations about NYU may not apply.
I still don’t think NYU is worth $71K, though… but I guess if the OP has the money saved up in a 529, they still do have the option.
@calmom Yes Gallatin does seem to offer some more individualized focus but I also hear mixed reviews as to whether Gallatin is a positive or something lesser. Any thoughts?
My daughter was accepted to Gallatin in 2006. She was offered roughly $8000 in aid - I think she “appealed” and got them to up the amount to $9000. She also qualified for loans & work study. After subtracting out those amounts, the total COA would have been $30K. That was above my budget. She kept the tote bag they gave her at the admitted student’s day, but turned them down.
I don’t know much about Gallatin – the “individualized” part is iffy. Sounds really, really good from the perspective of the student, but I don’t know how much respect it gets in academic quarters, especially for someone aspiring to an academic grad school path. It’s very possible that the individualized major with a philosophy focus that your daughter creates wouldn’t have all the elements that PhD programs expect to see. My daughter was kind of artsy – she was a dancer who enjoyed choreography, and Gallatin would have allowed her to combine her interest in dance with a sort of communications / linguistics focused major. Think, “dance as a medium of communication” and you’ve got the elevator speech version of her proposed course of study.
I never had the sort of resources you have – maybe you need to sit down with your daughter, show her the balance in the 529, let her know that there won’t be any more after that is exhausted, and let her make the ultimate decision. It’s a huge amount of money, and the COA doesn’t include costs for extras such as study abroad; you can expect NYU fees to keep going up and up-- so it isn’t even going to be $71K x 4.
Does your daughter also plan to work? The 529 funds can’t be used to fund all the fun, social stuff that attracts students to NYC – so she really needs to budget more.
Anyway, if it were my money… I’d pass – but my daughter had different options.
Gallatin is a division of NYU where students design their own individualized multidisciplinary/multithematic major. My impression is it’s regarded as lesser than NYU CAS because of that emphasis, the fact many students who otherwise failed to gain admission to CAS do receive admission to Gallatin, the fact a few of their graduates* made the news because of the huge debt incurred without the ability to get a job with enough pay to defray the high costs of the loans, etc.
Basically, Gallatin has a bit of a reputation among some NYU students/community and NYC area locals who are familiar with NYU as being a haven for well-off students who cannot decide on which discipline(s) to focus on.
If this reputation is perceived among Profs in the department deciding on who to admit to the PhD program, this can cause serious problems for the applicant concerned.
Especially for departments which may regard an undergrad with a multidisciplinary/multithematic major as “lacking in focus” and “not demonstrating enough seriousness/commitment” to the field one’s applying to for PhD. This really depends on the field concerned and individual department.
However, Philosophy does seem to be one field where being multidisciplinary doesn’t seem to be viewed too kindly from what I’ve heard from friends in PhD programs.
IMHO, if it is NYU Gallatin vs Temple Honors, it’s even more of a no-contest…Temple Honors.
I don’t know if the rules have changed recently, but historically the rule at NYU has been that students can only apply to one school. Students who don’t make the cut to their chosen school are often offered spots in the School of Liberal Studies – but unless it is a new development, a CAS student would not be offered a spot in Gallatin.
At the time my daughter applied, the overall admit rate at Gallatin was about the same as CAS-- so based on percentages, chances were the same. Gallatin’s admission process required submission of a statement describing the proposed course of study. I did believe at the time that the admission process was more holistic, and that my daughter would have better chances there than in a more numbers-oriented process… but given the fact that my daughter also turned down a spot at Univ. of Chicago that year it wasn’t due to lack of smarts.
I do agree that NYU overall is becoming something of a haven for students from wealthy families… mainly because with their terrible financial aid policies, no one else can afford the school. And I think you will find plenty of student loan horror stories from graduates of any of NYU’s schools. I think my daughter’s path would have been a little different if she had attended Gallatin… but maybe not a whole lot different. She’s got a job in media in midtown Manhattan, which is not in any way related to her undergraduate degree. But at least her debt load is manageable, because her salary certainly doesn’t go all that far.
I checked out Temple honors college’s web pages. The page reports the average freshmen M + CR SAT score is 1388. It depends on your family’s finances. I would worry about loading up a potential Philosophy major with any debt. Debt at the level required to finish undergraduate and graduate studies in Philosophy, (or possibly law school)…can make it difficult to:
ever own a home
ever get married (as many potential mates may shy away from assuming large student debt through marriage)
ever have children
ever educate those children
ever choose less-well paid but more fulfilling employment
ever retire.
If she is a strong student drawn to the humanities, I would assume it’s quite possible she might decide to attend law school instead of graduate school in philosophy. Thus, it would be logical to pencil in full law school tuition as you try to make budgetary decisions.
NYU accepts transfers. As you are not offered any aid from NYU, you wouldn’t be losing anything if your daughter enrolled at Temple, with the potential option of later transferring to another college, maybe even NYU. NYU is surely not the only university with a strong philosophy department.
I would argue that not receiving any aid from NYU paradoxically makes the rational choice easier. Your daughter is free to transfer to any college she might prefer in two years–finances would not be an issue. She would have $120 - 140 K more available to her from her 529 plan than she would have, were she to have chosen NYU.
Haven’t read the whole thread because I stopped when some posters said Temple is “almost free” (its a full tuition, NOT full ride scholarship- will still have room/board/fees/travel/books, etc. which could cost maybe 15-25K or so a year) and others who said the family would be incurring $300K of debt (they NEVER said that. They said they could pay full pay). There are plenty of full pay kids at schools like NYU, and it sounds like this student could be one as well. From a purely practical standpoint this is a no brainer. Save the $, go to Temple, go to grad school and end up teaching philosophy. The $ in the 529 needs to be used for education to avoid penalty so it can fund undergrad and grad (if she doesn’t get a funded grad program).
NYU gets a deserved bad rap because it is notoriously so stingy with money. Unless there is some magical fabulous philosophy dept there that will open more doors than Temple, the only other allure might be the fun of NYC. She can take the train from Philly to go to NYC for a weekend.
Keep in mind MANY kids change their majors, so this kiddo could take an elective in some other subject and fall in love with it. That could happen at either school. If the family can fully fund an NYU education and all the ancillary costs of living in The City, well good for them. Go for it. But if it makes them change any, ANY aspect of their lifestyle, work or retirement plans, then I’d say no. We promised our kids we’d pay for undergrad, and put no restrictions on it. We were almost full pay for older s, and have no regrets. Younger s took the full tuition scholarship with initial plans to save the $ for med school. He changed to engineering midway and the leftover $ we earmarked for college expenses became his at 21. He is investing it and saving for his future.
So OP, if you have the luxury, truly, to be fullpay at her dream school without batting an eyelash, I’d suggest she visit both schools again before making a final decision. Good luck.
Temple’s housing costs are middle of the road though there are a lot of on-campus and just-off choices at all price points. There is an honors suite-based dorm though honors kids can choose a different one, it actually has a classroom in it that some honors courses are taught in. We toured it last month.
I think this decision can’t be made without visiting both schools, sitting in on classes, talking to profs. I wouldn’t be able to if i were you, anyway.
jym626: Part of the issue here is that NYU sort of does have “some magical fabulous philosophy department there.” It pretty much has the top-ranked philosophy department in the world, with a lot of stars in a lot of fields. Simply being a philosophy major there will not open any doors at all, but great performance and the right faculty relationships there would certainly open more doors than the same kind of performance and relationships at Temple would open. Would they open $250,000 worth of more doors? It’s hard to figure that out, but it seems highly unlikely.
Moreover, if you are looking at what doors a philosophy department could open, the only relevant doors are the doors to top-ranked PhD programs. There’s no question that top NYU students will be attractive to those programs if they have NYU faculty support, but that does not mean a top Temple student with faculty support will not also be attractive. (If you are not a top student, don’t bother.) Maybe a Temple student would have to do a year at a freestanding master’s program elsewhere to gain entrance to a top PhD program. That’s still probably much less than four years at NYU. And maybe – probably, as a statistical matter – a particular student will wind up studying something other than philosophy in college, or will want to do something other than go to graduate school in philosophy. If that happens, the advantage for NYU would be much, much diminished.
All the more reason the OP’s dau should visit both, and the OP, who is most fortunate to be able to write a check for the cost (am paraphrasing, but the can afford full pay) so this may be a tough decision if the dau is very committed to majoring in philosophy (says a mom whose kids both changed their majors in college).
Even as a transfer, I’d carefully evaluate if NYU CAS(I wouldn’t go Gallatin if she knows she is interested in one or more discrete majors without needing the multidisciplinary/multithematic self-designed major) is worth the annual full-pay tuition on a ROI basis.
While NYU’s Philosophy department is ranked in the top 2, that’s applicable mainly for students doing a PhD in that department.
NYU grad/professional school and NYU undergrad divisions are starkly night and day different in attention received from topflight faculty, average academic strength of respective student pools, etc with the possible exception of Tisch or Stern, and in the case of PhD students…funding levels if one is deemed qualified enough to be admitted by the given academic department with departmental/outside grant funding which could also enhance one’s CV and thus, chances for getting on the tenure track.
Even 2 years at NYU undergrad with its miserly levels of FA/scholarship funding for most undergrads combined with law school can put someone into serious debt if they’re unwary and unlucky.
Have a friend who did 2 years of NYU* as a transfer student and 3 years of law school at a respectable…but not top 20 private law school and graduated right into the 2008 recession/implosion of the legal industry nationwide.
Despite being one of the few law students from his graduating class to land an actual lawyer job, the job at a non-profit barely paid $30k. Given that salary and high debt from NYU and law school and with compounding interest, his education debt is now over half a million with only an IBR(10 or possibly 25 year) to provide some kind possible relief.
He had a full-ride to a local college in a southern state for his first 2 years.