<p>The 250 trumpets is starting to sound like a fish story which gets bigger with each telling. Eastman had a total of 896 undergrad auditions and accepted 289 (32% acceptance). The vast majority of auditions do not require pre-auditions.</p>
<p>Sorry, the above numbers are several years old. I believe there has indeed been a substantial increase in applicants for a relatively constant number of openings.</p>
<p>OK, SORRY, I am way off (I think I had the 250 number as the total number of brass auditions - I'm not sure). </p>
<p>Anyway, secret scoop, here's how it falls this year - 80+ auditions for trumpet (down 30% this year, I wonder why?) for 4 undergrad performance positions. </p>
<p>Well, things are looking up! </p>
<p>Still no word on jazz program.</p>
<p>hey- look into mcgill university too, you can do a double degree and the trumpet studios here are fantastic (lindemann did his B.Mus here- he also recently applied for a faculty position here...)</p>
<p>Possible explanation for reported 30% decrease in auditions at Eastman this year - snow and ice across midwest and strong winds in Rochester wreaked havoc with airline schedules during one of their most popular (undergrads, performance majors, lots of instruments) audition weekends in February. After a 2 hr. delay for mechanical problems and several de-icings, my son made it out of Traverse City, MI airport about an hour ahead of a blizzard on a Thursday morning prior to his Friday audition. The airport was closed by noon, and many of his friends from Interlochen scheduled on later flights didn't make it. I'm sure other students connecting through Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati, etc. also had major problems, and the winds in Rochester didn't help on the other end. According to my son, the students who couldn't get to Rochester were encouraged to send a recorded audition, but opportunities to re-schedule live auditions were quite limited. Since it's not quite a simple task to throw together a conservatory-level audition recording, I imagine that some kids just didn't bother to follow through after the weather incident.</p>
<p>weenie, those trumpet numbers are in line with what the oboe numbers for Eastman were this year. I heard there were 77 auditioners for 4 undergrad spots. We have been told to expect very similar numbers for next year. I don't know if it is that way at all of the top schools, but I've got to figure most of the same kids auditioned at a lot of the same schools.</p>
<p>Binx...that was an incredibly helpful post. Thank you! I had my son read it and he really appreciated it as well. He talked about it all day yesterday. Thank you so much again!! Send me your daughter...we have violin teachers hear who send kids to international competitions every year. It's string heaven.<br>
77 trumpets...sounds like 76 trombones...It's still a lot of trumpets for four slots. My son has a lot of shedding to do if he's going to go for it.</p>
<p>symphonymom,</p>
<p>A much bigger question than where he goes to school is whether he should pursue music performance at all. Classical (Orchestral) performance opportunities are contracting rapidly in this country. The audience for serious music is dying off. For example, all four Lincoln Center constituents: the Met, NY Phil, NYC Ballet and NYC Opera regularly play to 1/4 to 1/2 empty halls -- a huge drop off in just a few years. I know the LA Phil plays to full halls and is held up as a model of how successful a modern day orchestra can be, but it is in a pretty unique situation. </p>
<p>Does your son want to play the trumpet because he's good at it, or because he loves it, or both? If it's not both, he should do something else. Of all instruments, trumpet players need a certain minimum strength and technique to have any chance of success. Does he have a strong high register and good double and triple tonguing? If not, he should just do something easy like become a brain surgeon.</p>
<p>Somehow, someone is always compelled to make this sort of comment about the study of music. I wonder if they have the same compulsion to comment about the study of history, literature, philosophy, archeology, and other fields with limited career opportunities.</p>
<p>I'm with you, edad. Whenever people question my son's desire to study in a university conservatory (usually followed by a comment such as, "Wouldn't it be wiser to get a Liberal Arts degree"?) I am struck by that same hypocrisy.</p>
<p>As if graduating with a degree in psychology or English is some ticket to a big career LOL! (I have an undergrad English degree, so know first hand of what I speak).</p>
<p>People who want to study and make a life in music can't imagine doing anything else. They don't want a degree in engineering, even if it would mean they might more easily find a job when they finish college.</p>
<p>LetsGoMets...I'm TOTALLY with you. As a musician who went to law school, my current mantra is "double major...double major." At 15, he's totally passionate, but that's because I'm paying the bills. I know the performance opportunities are extremely limited. You can't make a great living playing trumpet...and although money isn't everything, I have lots of friends in the arts who start feeling it when they can't afford their kids' tuition. If that's the only thing he wants to do with his life, I'm behind him 100%, but how is he supposed to know that at 15?
His technique is great. His range is developing (his teacher doesn't push it and he just turned 15. He can't hit the killer G yet). He doesn't play jazz..and he probably should, but he's a die-hard classical fan at this point.
I hear you loud and clear. I also think that in this time and age if he was really going to do this, I should put him at Interlochen instead of making him go to a prep school that gives him six hours of homework per evening. He likes to do his best at everything, so he has great grades and works for them at this school. Needless to say, that cuts into his practice time, which is limited until summer. He's an amazingly quick study...learns pieces almost instantly...but needs to become much more picky and break them down much more analytically. My critical assessment as a musician more than a mom...he has the natural talent and the drive. He needs to work A LOT more (he just needs more time). Even if everything falls into place...there still may not be a place for him in the professional world because as you point out, there are few opportunities. Then there are the other factors: luck, contacts, and hittting the right audition at the right place. Even then, it's no road to glory. Bottom line...you gotta love it more than anything else in the world. I don't think he can know that yet, which is why he's at a school that will give him more options.
Boy, that felt good...a chance to air all of my misgivings:) At the end of the day, it's not my decision...it's his..but I want him to know what's ahead, so these posts are good food for his thought.</p>
<p>Julliard's published acceptance rate is 7% which is inline with 4 of 77 that you have for Eastman oboe candidates. It would be great of those schools would have those numbers more available and broken down by instrument, rather than depending on word of mouth which normally is not too dependable. I have heard of 150 plus for 2 flute spot stories from some schools. One or two per year per professor seems common. From what I have heard string acceptance rates are higher and balance the low wind rates out a bit.</p>
<p>Peabody recruiter says their numbers are not nearly that bad and that they have more openings.</p>
<p>I can also add from personal experience that an undergrad degree in the sciences is not a ticket to career success. My W still regrets transferring to art education instead of completing her BFA. Maybe we would feel more confident if our kids went into computer sciences, but about they time graduate we will be outsourcing all jobs to India.</p>
<p>That's it. How does a double major, unless it is in an engineering field, contribute to potential job success?</p>
<p>It isn;t that I don't understand what symphonymom and Let'sgo are saying. I really do get the point. But what double major is going to majorly impact a musician's ability to get a job (other than music)? And what liberal arts major is any sort of ticket or guarentee to ANY sort of job?</p>
<p>Add to a near zero chance of getting a job as an orchestra musician, in a paying situation to the fact recent surveys show very low job satisfaction among those musicians really can scare a parent.</p>
<p>The question quickly becomes does entering the job market after 4 or 5 years with a music performance degree put one at a disadvantage compared to someone with a philosophy, English, etc degree?</p>
<p>And does getting a second degree in a liberal arts field really hedge your bet much? One great advantage to not going into a program that is strictly music is the lack of exposure to other fields. Both in class and other kids with other majors.</p>
<p>Tough being a parent when you know the second best kid in the best program in the country is not likely to be making a working wage playing their instrument any time soon if ever.</p>
<p>Since this thread is called Oberlin, If BassDad stops by, I was wondering if you had any reflection from your duaghter on the Oberlin reputation as a drugs, sex, and liberal protest march school?</p>
<p>Wow, I'm not really saying don't go into music. I am saying go into it with open eyes. I wasn't comparing music to any other course of study and am not sure how my comments are construed as being hypocritical. </p>
<p>symphonymom's son's position reminds me of myself 30 years ago -- a smart (at least reasonably so in my case) kid who plays a brass instrument well. My parents were passively supportive and put me through undergrad at an oos conservatory. I continued to grad school for MM and DMA on my own dime and was extremely lucky to win a job with one of the Lincoln Center orchestras. Most of my classmates are doing something else. For most of my undergrad years there were five other players on my instrument, none of them are still in music. One is already retired from the NYPD, one took over his father's exterminator business, one is in IT, another went to Juilliard for his masters, struggled for a few years, became an EMT and eventually went to medical school. On the other hand, two of the three guys I was with during my DMA years have college teaching jobs at prominant schools.</p>
<p>It is also true that plenty of music students go on to law school, medical school, business school and do very well. Many music schools even advertise how well their graduates do at being accepted into non-music graduate programs. </p>
<p>My own children, 15 and 13, are accomplished musicians who have not shown any interest in pursuing it as a career. If they did we would certainly support them, but we'd do it knowing it was likely they would wind up doing something else, and that we'd likely be paying for another year or two of undergraduate tuition to make up for the holes in their conservatory "education".</p>
<p>LetsGoMets - are you still working as a musician at Lincoln Center? Very cool.</p>
<p>I always encourage prospective music majors to change their minds cuts down on my Ss competition. :) (Just kidding!)</p>
<p>These are fair and necessary questions. I absolutely agree with the eyes open part. I personally struggle with the idea of a double major. My philosophy:</p>
<p>If you can see yourself doing anything else at all, do it.
If you HAVE to do music, be prepared to give it your all. Nothing half-way.</p>
<p>I dont have any hard and fast facts. I would love to see some statistics:
Two equally talented students; one goes conservatory, one double majors. Multiply that times a statistically significant number, and see if theres any difference in outcome.<br>
--Does the double major end up in music at the same rate that the single-focused student does?<br>
--Does the conservatory grad end up changing fields all together at a greater rate than the kid who had two fields to initially choose from?<br>
--How long does it take either to finally settle into a career of some sort?
--Whos happier?</p>
<p>There seems to be a lot of speculation based only on the number of music majors who dont end up in music. How many double majors dont end up in music? The same number? Higher? Lower? How many of other majors dont end up working in their field? Does anybody ever major in something because they love it, or is it only salary driven? (Rhetorical question, that.) Is there a difference inherent in the choice of pathways that has to do with talent or passion or outside support? </p>
<p>[Edit: I wrote this off line, and when I looked again, I see that a lot of the same ideas have recently been posted on another thread. Great minds, and all that.]</p>
<p>Im married to an engineer, who likes things careful and practical. Im not a huge risk-taker myself. And yet, to me, art is worth it. If everyone had a stable, useful, practical job, with a good income and job security, we could all go live in Stepford. We need the artists, the musicians, the creative ones, the soul touchers. What if Michaelangelos mom said, Mike, you cant make a living painting naked people on ceilings. </p>
<p>If society isnt supporting these folks, it doesnt follow that we dont need them. We just dont know we do. And we are poorer for it. The answer isnt to discourage kids from pursuing it. The answer is to go to a concert. Buy a CD. Support music education in your schools.</p>
<p>Where those government grant monies when you need to do an important study?</p>
<p>Two equally talented kids would be tough enough to find. Then again some claim there is no such thing as musical talent, merely desire, teaching and practice.</p>
<p>Does seem counter intuitive to think someone could progress as far splitting their time as someone that dedicates all their time but not impossible.</p>
<p>What a great discussion! I have to say, "Mike, you can't make a living painting naked people on ceilings" gave me a much needed laugh..thank you, Binx. We do need the soul touchers...but I would like my particular soul toucher to be happy, housed and fed. And not by me after the age of 21:)
Edad...I would not be thrilled if my kids wanted to go into engineering or comp sci either. You are right about the outsourcing...we have many friends who are fighting for their jobs. It's crazy out there.
My main question goes to LetsGoMets...do you love what you do or, if you had it to do all over again, would you do something different? I have to say, you make an excellent point..I don't mind having my son try it and decide as he goes.
Finally, I think we know the answer to the double major question. It's like my dilemna with with making my kid do heavy academics. Anything that takes you out of the practice room puts you at a disadvantage. I could be wrong about this...and I hope LetsGoMets chimes in...but if you are going to go for it, I would think the serious conservatory route would be the best. How's that for speaking out of both sides of my mouth? You are hearing conflict, my friends.</p>