<p>How do I repeat this — overcoming the difficulties of being a URM is a source of merit! It’s pretty straightforward. Asians have it easier when it comes to achieving academically than African Americans do.</p>
<p>Do you seriously think an Asian American’s 2400 is just as impressive as an African American’s? Do you know how rare those are? It continues to be rare far down the line. The mere difficulty involved in overcoming one’s background to achieve at the level African Americans accepted into Ivy League institutions fits the definition of merit.</p>
<p>You can’t compare the successes of African Americans to Asians so superficially. It’s like comparing apples to oranges.</p>
<p>No one is accepted on that basis besides legacies and development cases. And diversity of opinion isn’t the only kind of diversity. </p>
<p>Ethnic diversity wouldn’t mean anything if we lived in a colorblind society, but we don’t. The cultural experience of Asian Americans is qualitatively distinct from that of Blacks and involves entirely different merits and difficulties that must be overcome. But clearly, being a Black American entails much more.</p>
<p>You’re failing to recognize merit. It’s not the colleges that have it wrong; its your lack of awareness.</p>
<p>The problem with most of the arguments made so far in this thread (others fail to understand the position behind affirmative action) is that it assumes that African Americans have the same academic experiences as Asians. You guys seem to possess the racially stereotyped schema that blacks perform less exceptionally because they don’t work as hard; in reality, they lack the social fabric that Asians do that makes success to the degree your group has feasible. There aren’t very many “Tiger Moms” who are black at all.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that African Americans have to overcome a lot more than Asians have to in order to succeed academically. Their 2100 is just as impressive as an Asian’s 2350 because it takes a lot more effort to achieve with their cultural background. </p>
<p>Imagine how differently you might have performed if you lived in a culture where your parents didn’t encourage you to spend long amounts of time studying and working hard. If your request to take courses at the nearby university elicited a rant about developing common sense and having interests more like “normal kids” — and an implied “hell, no”. Imagine if choosing to emphasize academics in your life meant alienating yourself from everything your culture valued, rather than embodying it.</p>
<p>It’s difficult crap. And if affirmative action made college admissions easier for blacks than it was for asians, you’d see a higher proportion of blacks than asians at ivy league schools. But there isn’t, because even the huge admissions chance boosts that colleges seeking to maintain ethnic diversity give do not begin to counteract the difficulties that trying to be a highly-achieving black person entail.</p>
<p>Philotovist I’m a mere spectator to this threat, but your post does not apply to everyone. In fact, the majority of poverty in the United States is white people! I know the percentage is higher for African Americans but should the same class of whites / Asians be denied ? Double whammy? In fact, some colleges base on the bubble applicants on whether or not they are applying for financial aid. Just pointing out that each individual has his or her own merit that they have overcome. Don’t generalize so much, it simply is offending</p>
<p>I agree that Black student’s 2100 is comparable to Asian’s 2350. I’m Korean and I know there are tons of Tiger Moms, crazy about their children’s education. I know if I grew up as a Black URM, my score would be lower than my current low score. However, my mom wasn’t Tiger Mom at all. She found out that we need SAT for university admission when I was rising junior. She had no knowledge about American university admission because of lack of resources and available information around her. Students like me, who are not gifted in English nor have tiger moms but still Asians, are in bad places with other Asians who prepared for university since young under their tiger moms. It’s just unfortunate that parents of Asian applicants have such a huge influence in their children’s admissions. In that idea, being an Asian AND not having a tiger mom can be critical to one’s chance.</p>
<p>Am I talking about socioeconomic status or race? </p>
<p>It’s been proven through statistical comparisons between individuals of the same socioeconomic status but different races that socioeconomic status does not fully account for the condition of Blacks. You misread, and are misinformed.</p>
<p>Personally, I am not in favor of affirmative action. Everything should be based upon merits. Wealth and race should be irrelevent factors. I’m an asian-american from a very affluent family. My family is very into philanthropy and holds a substantial amount of influence in my state. Even so, I do not wish for colleges to accept me for that. I may just sound like a rebellious teenager sick of a life full of fake smiling, photo ops, and unreal problems, but I want to be accepted for being me. I dont want to be accepted because what my father, uncles, and grandfather have accomplished. It makes me sick. As for race…who cares? Just because one person does amazing in comparison to their peers of the same race does NOT mean they deserve acceptance over a more qualified candidate of a different race. Ifyou were going into surgery, would you stop the process and go “Please get me a black doctor, I think this hospital needs diversity and he did really well compared to the other black doctors.” Hell no! I’d be like “Get me the best damn doctor you have! I dont care if he’s white, blue, brown, green, or hazelnut amber!”</p>
<p>Philovitist - I know you’re trying to be supportive of URMs but you may not realize it comes off as somewhat condescending. We’re all people, all equals. No victims. Every family’s situation is different. Most of us are arguing for diversity beyond ethnicity.</p>
<p>No actually studies have proven that people with similar socioeconomic status tend to have similar values ! Disregard race! Modern day challenges and ideals are formed by number one, economy. Sorry but your trying to make up that blacks have a harder time because why ? If not economic status then why?</p>
<p>False analogy; college admissions is not employment. Diversity has many more benefits when you are trying to get a global education than it does when you are getting heart surgery. Besides, the whole point of a college education is to prepare students to be the best damn doctor we have.</p>
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<p>Not in and of itself, but in association with other factors, one might. </p>
<p>But it must be emphasized that the diversity being sought is not a variety of skin colors in the school, but a variety of different ethnic backgrounds that having an uncommon skin color (in our society, sadly) entails.</p>
<p>I’m arguing for ethnic diversity and beyond.</p>
<p>No one who gets accepted into an Ivy League university is a victim. It’s their not becoming victims despite their unique situations that makes their achievements meritorious. But we all do have our own loads to carry.</p>
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<p>I already detailed why in my third rant. :S</p>
<p>@Phil
“overcoming the difficulties of being a URM is a source of merit”</p>
<p>What do you mean? Are URMs just… programmed to be academically inferior to Asians and Whites and should be rewarded for achieving half of what non URMs achieve? Because that is what you are implying. What does race have to do with academic achievement? Nothing. You can make the argument for a student’s financial situation to affect their scores, but AA isn’t about money, it’s about race. </p>
<p>“No one is accepted on that basis besides legacies and development cases.” </p>
<p>And AA. Because accepting based on race is accepting based on who your parents are. Let’s assume you are right for a moment and that minorities should be rewarded for doing better than most of the minorities on test scores (while still doing worse than non URMs) and colleges give them that leeway. They are still being accepted based on who their parents are, if their parents were off a different race, they wouldn’t get that leeway. </p>
<p>“Imagine how differently you might have performed if you lived in a culture where your parents didn’t encourage you to spend long amounts of time studying and working hard” </p>
<p>So it’s a cultural thing? Why is it that only blacks don’t expect much from their kids? Plenty of white and Asian parents don’t pay attention to their children’s success. It’s racist to assume that all black parents don’t care. If a black child with parents that emphasized success gets a 2150 on the SAT and a white child who’s parents were too busy to care gets a 2180, the black student will still get admitted because it’s not about effort. It’s about race. </p>
<p>But I do respect you for presenting your ideas clearly and not resorting to name calling.</p>
<p>Umm…honestly, who cares if your parents did not encourage you to work hard? The majority of Asian Americans are not Ivy leaguers with parents that enforce a good work ethic and genetically pass on a higher IQ. White people and every other race have to deal with the same poverty as black people. Povery cannot be quantified as a distinct characteristic of a race. What about all the black people who are rich? Are they allowed to use the excuse of the greater race to get in? Tough luck. The real world won’t hold your hand because you whine about your upbringing. My grandfather grew up in Brooklyn and was completely destitute. He came to America alone at the age of 17 and worked as a busboy before he could afford to pay for school. He did not use his raceor socioeconomic status to hinder his growth. In fact, he is very proud of the fact that he refused to disclose his race on applications. I have no sympathy for anyone whose “mama” did not bring home SAT prep books. It is a cowardly gesture to ask for acceptance and use ones status as a method of lowering the bar. Perhaps I’m just a very proud individual, but these are my views.</p>
<p>Philotovist is just in denial. Every excuse but acceptance! Consistent stats and facts prove you wrong every time. Sorry but you’re to stubborn, bringing up meaningless “merit” that comes from a particular background …</p>
<p>But if a student has proved that he or she has much more potential to be the best doctor, and I mean come on…a 1700 sat is obviously less inclined to convey brilliance than a 2300, then the second applicant deserves access to the best education.</p>
<p>SpaceDuck, Why aren’t you? I have no intention of dropping the subject unless my logic is depleted or people stop insisting the fairness of AA which is blatantly not fair (although I’m not denying the benefits of AA). SpaceDuck, your logic cannot gain universal support. If you are black or other URM, just feel good about yourself and leave this discussion. If you are ORM or white, you should be able to figure out how AA favors specific race. I’m convinced that you are former, and no one is here to blame you for taking a spot in prestigious universities nor the AA policy. Privileged URM didn’t deserve any criticism except for those who are overwhelmingly proud and arrogant for their admission with meager objective stats.</p>
<p>70% of people on welfare are white and I’m sure they can provide a wonderful diverse opinion of how they managed to get their scores and etc. despite having meager beginnings. But because there are “too many of them”, no one cares. </p>
<p>I understand you are trying to be progressive and etc. but AA is assuming things about minorities that are inherently racist. Just in your post you assumed that URMs are worse at school than whites simply because of their race and that their parents don’t care about them. Characterizing races as a whole is the definition of racism. AA plays of stereotypes instead of looking at everyone as individuals.</p>
<p>Exactly ! He still wants to convince himself that there is a hidden merit within a race alone, not considering economic status ! But clearly economic status is the burden and that is what brings about overcoming obstacles – merit.</p>