Once and for All. Does Undergrad REALLY matter?

College Search & Selection
81

<p>Michael Jordan is the all time greatest professional athlete ever (IMO) - yeah you can talk about all the awards, accolades, championships, MVPs, records - the guy was just at another level - a leader, winner, single minded focus and determination, phenomenal athletic ability, unbreakable will to win, tenacious competitor.</p>

<p>I consider myself extremely lucky to have had a chance to see him play when he dropped a magical double nickel (55 points) on the Knicks in Madison Square Garden in one of his greatest games ever during his "comeback" season. The guy is an amazing talent that we are unlikely to see again on a basketball court.</p>

<p>Have you seen his latest "jumpman" Nike commercial? It takes his memorable plays and morphs it into regular "street" players, it's very well done:</p>

<p><a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=rovel/060302%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=rovel/060302&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

82

<p>I think Alexandre was right about the subtle effects your undergrad college has on you. When you arrive at your first college, you are sort of a blank slate, and the attitudes, pace, seriousness, confidence, work ethic etc. of the college and its students and faculty eventually put their imprint on you, whether you know it or not. So while your last college may be the most important in getting a job, your first college seems to have the most intense and lasting impact on you as a person. I think that's why you're a "(fill in the college name here) man" only if you got a bachelor's degree from there (not a grad degree). </p>

<p>P.S. Dean Smith was probably the greatest recruiter of all time, but he is WAY overrated as a coach. He went to the Final Four a zillion times with incredible talent, and got only 2 titles (one less than Bobby Knight and the same # as Jim Calhoun, Denny Crumb).</p>

83

<p>
[quote]

Look at the MIT grad school...most of them came from very decent colleges, where they excelled. I think it doesn't really matter where you go for undergrad as long as you pick the right major and get good grades.

[/quote]

Which department? When I interviewed for the biology PhD program, around half of the recruits were from MIT/Stanford/Caltech or one of the Ivies. (Think about how unlikely that is, just due to the sheer numbers.)</p>

<p>And if you're talking about engineering, a huge number of the spots go to people who did their undergrad at MIT (MIT is the most common graduate school destination of MIT undergrads). Clearly, where you go to undergrad does matter for admission into top graduate programs.</p>

<p>I mean, realistically speaking, admission into top grad programs goes disproportionally to people who went to top undergrad schools and excelled. The next largest group is of people who went to top undergrad schools and did pretty well. Then you start seeing people who went to "eh" undergrad schools and excelled.</p>

<p>I put myself in the "went to a top undergrad school and did pretty well" category -- I went to MIT and had a 3.4 GPA when I applied to grad schools, and I got into 5 of the top 6 programs in biology. How many kids at "decent" colleges do you think got into Harvard or Stanford's graduate biology programs with a 3.4? Probably not too many. (Probably not any.)</p>

84

<p>
[quote]
P.S. Dean Smith was probably the greatest recruiter of all time, but he is WAY overrated as a coach. He went to the Final Four a zillion times with incredible talent, and got only 2 titles (one less than Bobby Knight and the same # as Jim Calhoun, Denny Crumb).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, but Dean Smith didn't choke his players or throw metal chairs at them.</p>

<p>Let's just take a quick look at Smith's legacy (summary from Wiki):</p>

<ul>
<li>Holds record for most victories by an NCAA Division I men's basketball coach</li>
<li>Two national championships</li>
<li>11 Final Four appearances</li>
<li>.776 winning percentage</li>
<li>22 seasons with at least 25 wins</li>
<li>30 seasons with at least 20 wins, including 27 consecutive</li>
<li>17 regular-season ACC titles, plus 33 straight years finishing in the conference's top three</li>
<li>13 ACC tournament titles</li>
<li>27 NCAA tournament appearances, including 23 consecutive</li>
<li>Five of Smith's players have been Rookie of the Year in the NBA or ABA</li>
<li>National Coach of the Year four times (1977, 1979, 1982, 1993) </li>
<li>ACC Coach of the Year eight times (1967, 1968, 1969, 1971, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1988, 1993).</li>
<li>1997 Sportsman of the Year by Sports Illustrated</li>
<li>Basketball Hall of Fame</li>
</ul>

<p>and IMO, his most impressive statistic:</p>

<ul>
<li>96% of Smith's players graduated</li>
<li>Ran a clean, model program with no hint of ethical improprieties</li>
</ul>

<p>Plus if you ever heard his former players talk about him they still rave about him - from Michael Jordan (who particularly gives him serious props for his influence in his NBA career) to James Worthy to Rasheed Wallace.</p>

<p>Overrated? Smith's record speaks for itself. </p>

<p>Further, you can't summarize a career with number of championships - look at Dan Marino, look at Barry Sanders, look at Charles Barkley - all Hall of Famers who never won the big one... and Smith has won two championships so it's not like he "never one the big one". </p>

<p>Smith stands tall as one of college basketball's greatest coaches ever.</p>

85

<p>Building off of mollie's post, I'd say students who are <em>sure</em> they want to go to graduate school would do well to look at the peer assessment scores on USNews. I know their real world applicability is often called into question, but if nothing else, they will give you insight into how the people evaluating your grad school app view your school.</p>

<p>EDIT: And just to be clear, I'm not saying they should be viewed with the mindset that a 4.6 > 4.5, but that they can give you an idea of the general tiers schools fit into. </p>

<p>Ivy - Thanks so much for the link to the "Second Generation" commercial! I've been looking for it online since I saw it on TV. LOL, I like how the article says the commercial builds up to a slow reveal of what's going on, yet I immediately caught on the first time I saw it (c'mon, who else sticks their tongue out like that? :p). Hee, between this and ESPN Classic I should be set when it comes to getting my Jordan fix. :D</p>

86

<p>banana,</p>

<p>no probs. i actually downloaded it (you can find it on Google Videos).</p>

<p>i play it all the time to get pysched up before working out.</p>

<p>let me know if you have trouble finding it (you'll also need to download Google's video player)</p>

<p>its an awesome commericial.</p>

87

<p>
[quote]
I went to MIT and had a 3.4 GPA when I applied to grad schools, and I got into 5 of the top 6 programs in biology. How many kids at "decent" colleges do you think got into Harvard or Stanford's graduate biology programs with a 3.4?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think that's a bit of an unfair comparison. I think the working assumption is that if you go to a 'decent' school, you will get better grades than you would at MIT. I agree that this assumption is not always valid, and in fact there are scenarios where you might actually end up getting WORSE grades by going to a lesser school, but I believe it is the working assumption in this context.</p>

88

<p>has anyone else had trouble logging onto CC today?</p>

89

<p>Yes, I guess there were some technical difficulties.</p>

90

<p>Ivy_Grad, how did you enjoy pton's HOME Men's Lacrosse game yesterday.......... my sister called from NJ and the first thing she said was "F*** you!" Then I smiled.</p>

91

<p>The joys of sibbling rivalries! hehe</p>

92

<p>Untitled are you referring to the men's team loss to No. 2 Virginia?</p>

<p>The Cavaliers are looking very tough to beat this year - going undefeated as of now.</p>

<p>Interestingly, UVA Lacrosse team is coached by former Brown Bears lacrosse coach Dom Starsia.</p>

<p>Starsia's resume is very impressive:</p>

<p>BROWN
Starsia became Brown's head lacrosse coach in 1982 and compiled a 10-year record of 101-46, while establishing himself as one of the top young coaches in the game. His teams boasted the best Ivy League record and the best overall record for any Ivy League school over that 10-year span. He took Brown to the NCAA playoffs in five of his last six years, including the last three. The Bears won two Ivy League titles (1985 and 1991) and advanced to the NCAA quarterfinals in 1990, 1991 and 1992. Starsia led them to their finest season in 1991 with their first-ever undefeated regular season (13-0). They also won the Ivy League title and the New England Championship, and finished with a No. 2 national ranking.</p>

<p>UVA
Starsia is in his 14th season as head men's lacrosse coach at Virginia. Starsia has led his Cavalier squads to many outstanding achievements, including two national championships. His list of accomplishments grew last year following his team's 15-9 win over North Carolina, his 138th victory at UVa as he passed Jim "Ace" Adams for the most wins in program history. Starsia owns a 141-54 (.723) record at UVa and an overall career mark of 242-100 (.708) in 23 seasons.</p>

<p>In addition to holding the Virginia record for most wins, Starsia's 242 career wins are tied for 10th all-time by a Division I head coach. He is also one of three coaches to win 100+ games at two different schools. In addition to his 141 UVa wins, he won 101 games at Brown from 1983-92. Jack Emmer won 100+ games at both Washington & Lee and Army, while Dave Urick topped the century mark at Hobart and Georgetown.</p>

<p>Under his direction, the Cavaliers have enjoyed a remarkable era of success that is rivaled by few programs in the country. In addition to winning NCAA championships in 1999 and 2003, UVa reached the title game in 1994 and 1996, the semifinals in 1995, 2000, 2002 and 2005, and the quarterfinals in 1993, 1997 and 1998. UVa made three consecutive final four appearances from 1994-96. </p>

<p>Starsia was named ACC Coach of the Year for the second consecutive season and sixth time of his career in 2003. In addition to previously sharing that honor in 1995, he also earned ACC Coach of the Year honors in 1997 and in back-to-back seasons in 1999 and 2000.</p>

93

<p>possibly nobody notices that people arent hiring only prestigeous graduates. This has been a trend for the longest time. Even recently on cnbc, company representatives said that they are looking for for state schools and plan to focus on recruiting from state which more accurately means the top regional schools in their area.</p>

<p>Why do top schools have the best recruiting, simply becuase the application process for the schools has already weeded out what say a business like goldman sachs would consider undesirable. They know and have said that their are obviously students that could excel in their work environment from less selective schools, but it would take to much effort, money and time to weed those people out. </p>

<p>And no one seems to think that stanford sends more graduates to professional/graduate schools simply because more people from stanford apply. Imagine a school like ASU, great business school but you can count that most of the school has people that do not plan to apply to graduate or have aspirations of becoming an investment banker. Its probably 90% normal average people that will be happy to graduate and settle into a mediocore job.</p>

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<p>Do you even read the rest of the posts before you post? All your arguments have already been addressed.</p>

95

<p>yes i did read the entire thread. Did you read the thread? please tell me where anyone mentions cnbc, regional and the weeding out for post undergrad. Perhaps you should read more carefully</p>

96

<p>"You missed my point. If you went to a state school, do you think you can be guaranteed a masters in ECE from a top ranked school in 5 years?</p>

<p>Second point you haven't addressed. Do you believe 3.5 Ivy = 3.5 tier 3 state?"</p>

<p>oh and ACA, you should do more research. Lets see, why dont you tell me what undergrad you can go to to get a JD from columbia in a total of 6 years instead of 7. Its not an ivy, its not your so precious carnegie, its occidental college. You seem to constantly open your mouth prematurely.</p>

97

<p>Fine let me help you.</p>

<p>"possibly nobody notices that people arent hiring only prestigeous graduates."
Issue already addressed. Your chances are just lowered if applying from an unprestigious school when comparing against a prestigious grad. </p>

<p>"Even recently on cnbc, company representatives said that they are looking for for state schools and plan to focus on recruiting from state which more accurately means the top regional schools in their area."</p>

<p>Goldman Sachs hires almost nobody out of a tier 2-3 state school. Same with JPmorgan, Lazard, BR Blackstone, Microsoft, etc. </p>

<p>"
Why do top schools have the best recruiting, simply becuase the application process for the schools has already weeded out what say a business like goldman sachs would consider undesirable."</p>

<p>As people have already said, this is because Goldman Sachs wants top students; ones that are more qualified than state grads. </p>

<p>"
And no one seems to think that stanford sends more graduates to professional/graduate schools simply because more people from stanford apply."</p>

<p>Did you not read my post? Not one out of six from FSU got in while a huge majority of Stanford grads got in. This is called PERCENTAGE. Even if a million Stanford people applied, the overwhelming majority would get in while FSU remains at 0%. If FSU = Stanford, don't you think at least one FSU guy would get in?</p>

<p>"you can count that most of the school has people that do not plan to apply to graduate or have aspirations of becoming an investment banker. Its probably 90% normal average people that will be happy to graduate and settle into a mediocore job."</p>

<p>Those six FSU guys sure had aspirations and plans to attend graduate school.</p>