Once and for All. Does Undergrad REALLY matter?

College Search & Selection
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But somehow I imagine, that down the road, if you need help in your area, or a reference, or whatever - the people who you went to grad school with are more likely to help you out than the people you went to undergrad with.

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<p>Not sure I can agree with this, for the same reason that many colleges only assign legacy status to people whose parents went there for undergrad. As an undergrad, you're much more immersed in a university and its culture, and consequently identify very strongly with it even after graduation. It's hard to put into words, but I have always sensed that there is more of a connection between people that attended the same school as undergrads than those that went to the same grad/biz/law/med school.</p>

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<p>well said.</p>

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<p>Very true, bananainpyjamas.</p>

<p>And please quit being behind me :p.</p>

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<p>This is one of those rare occasions where I must agree with Ivy_Grad (on something other than Switzerland)! The undergraduate institution one attends matters a lot. Here are several reasons why I believe it matters:</p>

<p>1) The attachment one has for one's undergraduate institution is much stronger than the attachment one has for one's graduate institution.</p>

<p>2) I consider the undergraduate years to be a very crucial part of one's development. That's when young adults turn into the individuals they are likely to become. Attending the "right" university (not necessarily the most prestigious or the most highly ranked mind you) can significantly impact the development (or lack thereof) of several key personality traits such as confidence, discipline, proper articulation of thoughts, worldliness, cultural enrichment etc... </p>

<p>3) I know this has been beaten to death, but the fact remains, not all diplomas are created equal. In an ideal and fair world, each individual would be weighed and measured according to their worth. But this isn't an ideal world. The better the school, the more doors it will open. Is it any surprise that 60%-80% of the students at top 10 graduate programs come from the nation's top 1%-2% undergraduate institutions? It is true that top students attend top universities and as such, a larger ratio of students at top universities will be worthy of top graduate school spots...but not by that sort of margin! Some of the reason the students of top universities meet with such graduate school placement success must be attributed to the reputation of their undergraduate institutions in the eyes of academe. Look at the new recruits joining exclusive companies and you will notice the same patern.</p>

<p>4) For various reasons, the networking one does at the undergraduate level is hard to duplicate at the graduate level. I guess that has to do with my first point; attachment to one's undergraduate institution. Until this day, 10 years after graduating from my undergraduate institution, I still keep in touch with over 30 alums on a monthly basis, even though we are scattered around several countries on 6 of the 7 continents. Groups of us often travel together on vacation trips, we visit each other frequently, we attend each other's weddings etc...On top of that small core group of very close friends, one has a far larger group of moderate friends/acquaintances. I seriously get several excellent job offers annually from that group of close friends and acquaintances. I do not get nearly the same benefits from my graduate school connections...and I consider my graduate network to be considerable.</p>

<p>Of course, that is not to say that all is lost if one cannot attend a university with a strong undergraduate culture and a well connected/loyal alumni network, especially if one attends a top graduate program. And one doesn't have to attend Harvard or Yale or Princeton to benefit fully from an undergraduate education. One can get just as worthy an experience at a school like Notre Dame or Georgetown or UVA. But to say that one's undergraduate alma matter doesn't "matter", even if one attends a top graduate school, is too idealistic, naive and unrealistic.</p>

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when i said undergrad doesn't matter if you go to grad school, i was referring to job prospects. I'm not talking about what cbs news says when you decide to blow up a building or commit a triple murder.</p>

<p>If you walk up to morgan melhuish or sullivan & cromwell with a law degree from virginia/nyu/harvard they're not going to care if you went to harvard undergrad or caldwell college.

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<p>Yeah, but what if you're a lawyer trying to start your own law firm and trying to get clients? Especially if those clients are not familiar with law? I.e. you want to get into criminal defense or personal injury or wills/probate, etc., and so your clientele is going to consist of regular people? Then ,the fact that you went to a major-league undergrad program will conceal the fact that you may have gone to a less prominent law school.</p>

<p>For example, I know a guy who went to Harvard undergrad and then UCLA for law school and now has his own law firm doing personal injury (basically, suing companies on behalf of regular people for having physically hurt them). He advertises himself as being "Harvard-educated", which is a statement of fact, because he does have a degree from Harvard. Not a law degree from Harvard, but he does have a degree, so he was 'educated' there. I have to believe that simply saying that he is Harvard-educated has helped him to land clients who might have otherwise chosen some other lawyer. He's doing very well for himself. </p>

<p>In fact, this whole topic breaks down into a generalized theme of the importance of branding in the wake of imperfect information. The fact is, nobody ever really knows just how competent a person is at his job. That's why people rely on brand names, the prestige of the school being one form of branding. Other forms of branding can be the good reputation you get from doing good work for many years. But it's all the same idea. You have to rely on information signals of some kind to help you decide who to hire.</p>

<p>After all, think of it this way. You say that big law firms are only going to care about the brand name of the law school you graduated from. Yeah, but why is that? Ultimately, the law firm wants to hire a good lawyer, just like a regular person who wants to sue somebody wants to hire a good lawyer. The problem is that neither that law firm nor the regular person is really going to know who is going to be a good lawyer. That's why they have to rely on brand names of schools as information signals. It's just that a law firm has better knowledge than the regular person because the law firm has been around lawyers more. But even so, the information the law firm has is highly incomplete. </p>

<p>The point is that brand names serve as substitutes for information. When I see 2 coffee shops next to each other, one being Starbucks, another being one I have never heard of, I might choose Starbucks, if, for no other reason, I know what I am going to get there. That other coffee shop might be even better than Starbucks, but how would I know that? I would have to risk going in there and spending money only to find out it is bad coffee. By choosing the familiar brand name, I am reducing my risk.</p>

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<p>CautiousPessimism - LOL, I'm sorry. When it came down to a choice of being honest about my location or being snarky, I just couldn't resist the latter. But I am in pajamas right now, so at least part of my screenname is true. ;)</p>

<p>Ivy - Thanks. :) I definitely felt the need to back you up on this because IMO way too many people disregard the networking benefits that come with an elite undergraduate education. Sure you can become part of an awesome network through grad school, but, if you can, why not have both? :D</p>

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<p>people are agreeing with me... the sky must be falling! :)</p>

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<p>Hey Ivy, I always have your back...</p>

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<p>slipper, i hear ya buddy - btw, congrats to the Big Green and their win over the lady Tigers to capture the women's Ivy title and a bid to the women's NCAA dance.</p>

<p>p.s. and a shout out to the Penn Quakers men's team vs. Texas during March Madness - be this year's Cinderella - go IVY!!!</p>

<p>p.p.s. - hey Alex, what happened to the Wolverines? ... i know that was a cheapshot :)</p>

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<p>Go Ivy? That's like yelling "Go Pac 10!" What a weird thing to do.</p>

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<p>Drab,</p>

<p>Yes they most certainly do.</p>

<p>Rooting for a fellow conference team (once your team is out of the picture of course) happens all the time - fans have allegiance to their own conferences vs. non-conference foes.</p>

<p>For instance, if the championship came down to a Big East team vs. an ACC team (e.g. Syracuse vs. Duke) the ACC teams will be rooting for Duke and the Big East teams will be rooting for Syracuse. It's about having pride in your own conference - "represent!". Same goes for the Pac-10 or Big 10, etc. It's very simple reasoning. If your team didn't make it to the finals / championship, the next best thing is to have one of your own rivals in your own conference to win the championship - it's a simple testament to the excellence of your conference.</p>

<p>The Big East this year has 8 teams going to the NCAA tournament - more than any other conference and an NCAA tournament record for teams going to the Big Dance from one conference - they are clearly the best and toughest conference in the NCAAs - that alone gives it bragging rights. It basically tells the rest of the country, WE ARE REPRESENTING LARGE in the Big Dance. Big East teams likely to make long runs into the tourney this year (IMO): UConn, Villanova, Syracuse, Pitt, Georgetown) </p>

<p>This also happens all the time in professional sports as well. Fans of AFC teams will root for AFC teams in the Superbowl and vice versa. Same for the National League vs. American League in baseball.</p>

<p>No where is this more true than for very close-knit athletic conferences like the Ivies - they DEFINITELY root for one another when an Ivy team goes up against another non-Ivy team in a major NCAA tournament like during March Madness. It's a matter of pride. It's a matter of rooting for your own. And when you are an Ivy, you are definitely a major underdog since we don't give out sports scholarships so it's typically a David vs. Goliath situation (except for minor sports like crew or lacrosse).</p>

<p>You don't strike me as a huge sports fan - otherwise you'd already know this full well.</p>

<p>Yet another missed swipe at the Ivies... keep 'em coming. </p>

<p>I'll keep knockin' em down.</p>

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<p>My sportsfandom fluctuates.</p>

<p>Ivy_grad, a swipe at the Ivies? You do have quite the ego, ivy boy. :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>Ivy_Grad, Michigan basketball has never been good. I mean, we manage to make it to the Final Four once every decade and we did win it all in 1989, but Michigan is more famous for its football and hockey programs, even though we had our worst football season (7-5) in 20+ years this year...ouch! But it's ok, there is always next season! hehe</p>

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<p>Alex,</p>

<p>Had Michigan gotten past Minnesota in the first round of the Big 10 Championship, they would in all likelihood have received a bid to go to the NCAA tourney. As it was, they lost 7 out of their last 10 games of the season - including key losses against Michigan St., Iowa, OSU and they ended their season with three losses in a row vs. Indiana, OSU (again) and Minnesota - not good.</p>

<p>They didn't have a great year, but they play in a tough conference and their strength of schedule is relatively high as well. They just needed another win or two.</p>

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<p>Talking about basketball now? Duke would smoke you all. :p</p>

<p>(I hope)</p>

<p>Oh and an exception to the root-for-your-conference rule comes into play when dealing with MAJOR rivals. I know of very few Duke students who rooted for UNC last year. ;)</p>

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<p>Yeah, Duke vs. UNC is definitely the fiercest rivalry in basketball. Such a great and rich b-ball history there (Coach K, Dean Smith, Michael Jordan making the winning shot and winning the '82 championship, Laettner leading the Blue Devils to back-to-back titles etc.)</p>

<p>J.J. Redick is the real deal - he found his stroke during the BC game today (tough match) - man he has a quick release and a sweet stroke plus he is such an emotional team leader (much like G-Mac - Gerry Mcnamara from Syracuse). J.J. will be one to watch as a playmaker in the NBA.</p>

<p>That said, watch out for the Tar Heels next year, they will be a serious contender to win it all in '07. This year was supposed to be a major "rebuilding" year since they lost their top 7 scorers, noone gave them a chance to do much this year, but they are looking very strong and will likely make a deep run into the tourney this year as well.</p>

<p>(man i gotta get some sleep now)</p>

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<p>Losing to Minnesota was the problem. Had Michigan managed to win that game, it would have made it into the tournament. But like I said, Basketball really isn't Michigan's forte and making it to the field of 64 would have meant an early loss for us!</p>

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<p>U of M Basketball: the fab-5 was the last high and the first low.</p>

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Such a great and rich b-ball history there (Coach K, Dean Smith, Michael Jordan making the winning shot and winning the '82 championship, Laettner leading the Blue Devils to back-to-back titles etc.)

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<p>Is it bad that I'm more in awe of UNC's history? :p I think Dean Smith is one of the best coaches of all time, and I'm such a huge Michael Jordan fan it's not even funny. I even won a life-size cardboard cut-out of him in a school contest and keep it in my room. It freaks my mom out everytime she sees it. </p>

<p><a href="man%20i%20gotta%20get%20some%20sleep%20now">quote</a>

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<p>Heh, are you on EST too? My dad came downstairs, looked at the clock, and was like "Is this what you do in college?"</p>

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<p>Look at the MIT grad school...most of them came from very decent colleges, where they excelled. I think it doesn't really matter where you go for undergrad as long as you pick the right major and get good grades.</p>