"Do Harvard and other elite universities illegally discriminate against Asian American applicants?
I’m not sure. But there’s another group of people who definitely face routine prejudice in college admissions. They’re the quiet types who keep to themselves, often preferring a relaxed evening at home to a rowdy night out. They like to study alone, not in groups. And they’re often the last ones to speak up in class.
I’m talking about introverts, of course. And if there’s one thing we’ve learned from reports on the recent lawsuit against Harvard University’s admission system, it’s that introverts routinely get the short end of the stick." …
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/one-group-that-definitely-faces-prejudice-in-college-admissions/2018/08/05/906095e0-9668-11e8-a679-b09212fb69c2_story.html?utm_term=.ac3f0b946b3f
Combine that Zimmerman article with Malcolm Gladwell’s surprising talk to Google about who actually succeeds in college (https://youtu.be/3UEwbRWFZVc) and I can’t help but think that college admissions could use a Moneyball-type reform. New thinking is needed in the admissions review process, and in the minds of us parents and applicants about what REALLY serves us all best in the college educational process, and in the financing models.
@wwjjdo94 Thanks for posting a link to one of my all time favorite Gladwell talks. I think this video should be mandatory viewing for all college bound seniors and their parents. People need to be reminded that greater success is often achieved at schools outside of the top 20!
Interesting perspective & informative insight.
My first thought is that private schools should be allowed to build classes based on institutional desires which can be justified before labeling any practice as racist. If a school places a higher value on social interaction & classroom & campus participation, then that is fine if done for the right reasons even if there is some evidence that the priorities affect certain cultures more than others. The trick is in defining the reasons for those preferences.
I was wondering about this issue just the other day. My D21 is an introvert and from everything I’ve read, colleges do seem to prefer the fearless, outgoing, extraverted leader. Fortunately my D21 is a leader (albeit in a quiet way) but she will need to work harder than her extraverted peers to show this in an application.
We are so focused on racial diversity that I think we lose sight of other types of diversity, such as disability. If the goal is to elevate the less fortunate or less privileged, and the underrepresented in our society, we also need to include disabled individuals. Deaf people, for example, have a very difficult time finding jobs, even those who are well-educated and highly qualified. I would imagine the same is true for many other types of disabilities; they are often underemployed. To be truly inclusive, we need to expand our definition of diversity.
'Scuuuse me. Did the author see how H phrases it? (Same as any kid should be exploring, btw.)
Among other things they note:
“Will you contribute something to Harvard and to your classmates? Will you benefit from your Harvard experience?
Would other students want to room with you, share a meal, be in a seminar together, be teammates, or collaborate in a closely knit extracurricular group?”
Of course, one can be introverted and still socially successful. But not by being painfully and totally unable to integrate. In fairness, those kids need an environment where they are more comfortable.
Not everyone needs to be bold and rah-rah to the nth degree. Most kids are a nice balance of some outgoing and some private. It’s good to appreciate the alone time as well as some interaction. And many introverts do.
Thanks for the interesting article.
I wanted to point something out that I did not used to understand: Introverted does not equal shy. It’s also not synonymous with social awkwardness or lack of social skills. Introversion is about how you recharge. My friends and family would say I love to connect and I’m good at relationships. But I’m also an introvert, so I need alone time, quiet time, to unwind and re-energize. I’ve had plenty of jobs and positions where I had to be outgoing with lots of people, and I’m totally capable of that, but I need plenty of down time afterwards to think and process alone.
If being with people is painful or scary, that’s not introversion–that’s social anxiety.
@3SailAway Sorry. It’s just that we’ve had many threads hinting or stating that introverts are at a disadvantage, even excluded, by top colleges. And often the picture given is kids who have difficulty integrating, don’t have the flex you mention. They have equated introversion with extremes. Yes, that’s different. Thanks for the comment.
And… here we go down the shy vs introverted rabbit hole again. Conversation derailed by hair splitting (again).
My introvert (also shy, a bit socially awkward — there, are you happy?) does fine with people she knows, and is also a quiet leader. Leads by example & performance. Speaks up rarely, but has a big impact when she does. She skipped interviews where possible for undergrad for this reason. Her LORs were strong, and it made more sense to let those and her essays speak for her. She got in everyplace she applied, including some top schools. That is one way to work around this bias in the process.
I think most people who work in admissions are extroverts. And that contributes to the bias.
This was definitely a concern with my D17. While it appears to be true that top schools seem to put an emphasis on leadership I would say some schools are more notorious than others including Harvard in that group. My extremely introverted/socially anxious D didn’t apply to H or for scholarships like the Robertson, Danforth, etc. which she felt that an introvert really doesn’t have much of a chance.
When answering short answers/essays concerning leadership she would write about her Collaboration in projects/teams.
Not sure what data supports the author’s assertion that “rah rah” extroverts are favored over quiet, more contemplative candidates. Schools have a legitimate interest in accepting students who will be part of and contribute to the school’s academic and social community as @lookingforward points out. As an indication of AO priorities, the following are the positive traits that Yale asks interviewers to look out for and comment on:
• Intellectual strengths and energy: Were his answers to your questions
thoughtful, full? Did he display insight, originality, ability to support ideas with examples?
• Academic interests: Was the applicant able to identify some areas of particular academic
interest? Does she enjoy learning in other academic areas? Is she likely to take advantage of
a liberal arts education?
• Flexibility in thinking, openness: Did the applicant show signs that he can entertain different
points of view and can offer opinions with grace?
• Expressive abilities: Did she offer full, articulate responses to reflective questions? Did
she ask thoughtful questions?
• Nonacademic interests or talents: What is her level of commitment in terms of time and energy? Does she seem to be striking a healthy balance between extracurricular activity and school work?
• Personal qualities: What kind of classmate and/or roommate is she likely to be? What character traits are you able to detect? Do her personal traits set her apart in a positive way? In a less than positive way?
• Distinctive or unusual talents and/or circumstances
Candidates who are “listeners” rather than “talkers”, “doers” rather than “cheerleaders” can stand out on all the above criteria. Candidates who have an assertive personality can equally come off very badly on the same criteria.
Assertive personalities are more likely to run for officer positions in organizations, I am pretty sure. Not that these are the be all/end all of admissions, but they don’t hurt. I think that is especially true for scholarships outside of school — those committees are wowed by formal titles in many cases.
Hmm. Titles or the action? Introverts can take action. And leadership is a quality, not a collection of titles.
But I’ll point out the link is an opinion piece.
This isn’t news, I’m afraid. My D is introverted, but no longer quite as shy and awkward as she used to be. Shes now a junior at a pretty selective college, and did well in admissions, with almost a complete lack of meaningful leadership. She thought colleges should know that she is introverted and shy, so that’s what she wrote her essay about.
I do agree with @intparent that there are other ways of showing leadership. My D is still not a “leader”, but she is definitely coming into her own and showing leadership in practical ways. She is thriving at her school. It is unfortunate that many colleges care a lot about titles and accolades, but I also have to wonder if most introverted/shy/socially awkward kids would be really happy at a very competitive, high-pressure super-selective college anyway. Students should present the best picture of who they are, and not try to fit into an ideal that they aren’t.
I wonder how many introverts actually care about the public prestige and social connections that are the main selling point of schools like Harvard. At least my introvert disdains that sort of thing. I’m sure many young introverts only apply to H because it’s what their parents want or because they think that public prestige means it’s the best place academically. Others apply because only because it is genuinely the best college that would be affordable for their family.
@intparent, you wrote, “And… here we go down the shy vs introverted rabbit hole again. Conversation derailed by hair splitting (again). My introvert (also shy, a bit socially awkward — there, are you happy?)”
I was only pointing out something that helped me understand introversion. No, I’m not happy with your response–it’s snarky and unwelcoming.
From my experience, an introvert who doesn’t also have social anxiety or shyness is as likely to be an active participant in a college community as an extrovert. I also don’t think they would be less likely to be admitted. College aren’t looking for rowdy, crowded EC’s, or students who like to study in groups. Interviewers don’t know that you spent the morning before your appointment in a quiet spot with a good book so you’d be ready to be “on stage”.
As far as class participation, many introverts I know speak more in a classroom situation than at a party because they are interested and prepared for the subject so it’s more enticing than small talk. If a student only speaks up when they have something important to say, that’s great. If they are nervous to speak up in class, one-on-one with the teacher would be a good way to start sharing their ideas. I taught high school, and was always looking to connect with the quieter students. I was far from alone as a teacher in finding them insightful and restful.
My introvert turned down 3 schools ranked higher than where she attended because she didn’t care about that. And only really looked at Columbia among the Ivies due to it’s intellectual lean, but ultimately decided not to apply because she doesn’t like New York.
Not every student is a fit for a school’s stated mission and therefore it is okay for the school to fill its class based upon that mission (as long as the mission is not unlawful discrimination alone.). And as consumers, students and parents (and even teachers!) need to accept that a more diverse set of schools should be sought after. Not every ivy/highly selective school is a fit for a student’s intended mission either. Run your own race everyone. It takes all kinds to make this world go round.
Except it’s not splitting hairs. People frequently use shy, socially anxious, and/or socially ackward as synonyms for introversion. They’re different things. A shy, socially awkward, or socially anxious person may also be an introvert, but the reverse isn’t necessarily true. Introverts get their energy from being alone. Not wanting to talk to people all the time isn’t the same as being afraid to talk to them.
My profession involves talking to people all day long. In my personal life I serve on community committees, organize events for upwards of 150 people, lead teen groups, coach children’s rec leagues, and volunteer. I talk to anyone and everyone. Yet, I’m an introvert. At the end of the day I need an hour to myself to wind down. My children are the same way. I don’t see how an adcom could look at their apps and think “introvert.” How would they know?