One group that definitely faces prejudice in college admissions

Applying to College
41

@Lookingforward asks some very good questions. I don’t understand why people assume that adcoms are prejudiced against introverts or why they think all introverts are the same. Adcoms only see what the applicant chooses to present, and I think there are introverts who have competitive activities and extroverts who don’t. And either can miss the mark on how to best present them. That’s not the adcoms fault.

I question the premise of the article. The writer doesn’t understand introversion and the examples they give to prove their point are pretty weak. It looks like a rehash of previous comments from the report. Last week they were used to “prove” Harvard discriminated against Asians. This week they “prove” they discriminate against introverts. I think they’re trying to squeeze every last angle out of the report so they can get one more story.

The article also says this:

I don’t see anything in the article to support this statement and I don’t believe it’s true. What does a student gain by joining as many groups as possible AND being president of all of them? More importantly, what would they be able to contribute by spreading themselves so thinly? Why would a college want a campus full of students who “dominate” every conversation? How does that add to the campus environment?

42

There’s a lot written about how introverts can make great leaders, based on their thoughful qualities. They may not be the first to jump up or fist pump, but they can be in it for the long run, so to say. I’m often amazed, when the topic turns to personality, how many here on CC note that they’re introverts. Nothing lacking there.

To say adcoms can’t recognize thoughtfulness (which refers to thinking, awareness, consideration, and more) or purposefulness is just nuts. It’s not fair to introverts to lump all of them with the socially awkward or socially anxious. That’s different than quiet or reserved. Or, discerning.

There are applicants where it’s obvious they don’t integrate well. Sometimes, they admit it. Sometimes, it pokes through in the LoRs or there are few/no peer activities. Those kids may not match the overall, broad types of cultures in a college. It’s not about some one label, it’s more particular.

43

Introvert does not equal socially awkward. Extroverts can be very socially awkward,especially if they dominate every interaction. That is not a positive personality trait. Many introverts love a party even though they sometimes like to be observers some of time time.

Introvert also doesn’t mean relcuse. 2 of my 3 children are introverts they are both introverts. Many introverts leaders. Both of my kids captains of their team and officers of activities.a. My oenextrovert

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My one extrovertedch

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I loved this article because it focused on the easy “optics” of a what a successful student looks like to those with the power to choose: leadership titles, outgoing personality, speaking in class etc. (Schmoozing teachers). I think one topic that doesnt get enough attention is the quality of admissions employees. They are not generally rocket scientists, star athletes, published authors or anything else of note. They are essentially bureaucrats.

46

The author is not an adcom. Don’t take him at his word re: “what a successful student looks like to those with the power to choose.” On his say-so, you’d proclaim adcoms not capable? This one guy who wrote an opinion piece?

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@lookingforward I am not taking the author at his “say-so.” In fact I am basing my comments on everything that colleges want in students: leadership, involvement, go-getter etc All you have to do is read on Ivy League websites and here on CC what selective schools are looking for…Look at all the chance me threads. The kids who match up with these ideal applicants are going to be extroverts by and large. i.e I have a kid who is very good at math and chess but will never be in math club or go to competitions because simply not comfortable in that kind of environoment.

48

The definition of “Introvert” - a shy, reticent (reserved) person

It’s not just an issue with college admissions, I work in an industry accounting / tax which has lots of entry level introverts, but the ones that move up the ranks (managers, directors, and partners) are generally the outgoing and confident professionals, who are not afraid to interact with strangers at networking events or give presentations to a room full of people, for example.

49

yes @austinmshauri that’s what I am wondering in all this. What are admissions truly wanting in their admitted classes? I would think that it comes down to, on a high level, what makes the school look the best: Retention, 4 year graduation, after grad placement and salary, etc. And on a smaller level, I’m sure they care too about how the student will fit in (and, I dare say, raise) the current profile of the school. So are they truly looking for only those “leaders” with excellent resumes and the quantifiable externally awarded accomplishments? Or would they be looking for more of a balance in applicants’ strengths, whether they are external or less so?

I am reminded of our Georgetown presentation where they said that they require SAT Subject test scores because they have found that those, above any other stat, are predictive of success at Georgetown. Very interesting. So what else have universities studied and found are the best predictives of “success”, or whatever they are looking to accomplish when they put together a freshman class (cynically thinking that admissions, overall, is ultimately about the bottom line to the school)?

50

@Center Math clubs and math competitions are chock-full of introverts.

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@TS0104 - you may want to read Malcolm Gladwell’s article “Getting In” if you haven’t already. As for prediction values of tests, yeah, SAT Subject Tests are better predictors than SAT 1 or ACT, but their prediction value is still pretty low. Turns out it’s hard to know what a 17-year-old will be like when she’s 21, news at 11.

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@yucca10 - as are science labs and the Nobel Laureate roster.

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@yucca10 I would bet most are not introverts. Being in clubs and joining in frenzied, tense, high pressure group activities is not typically the preference of introverts.

54

There is nothing inconsistent with being an introvert and joining a club. I was in the chess club in high school – we didn’t compete, it was just a place I could go to find other kids who were interested in playing chess and maybe improving their game somewhat. That was in the days before computers, so if a kid wanted to play chess they needed a partner.

I do think the word “introvert” is being used by many to describe a different set of qualities, including avoidance and reticence. Introverts are not necessarily loners – they may be, but more common that introverts will have a small set of close friends.

Introversion has nothing whatsoever to do with the ability to take initiative,become engage, or pursue interests, including arts and athletics. For example, high school orchestras are full of introverted kids who are quite willing to participate in the organized group – though each student sits alone with their own instrument throughout practices and performances, and musicianship generally involves hours and hours of solo practice.

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@Center Believe me, I know quite a few math club kids. My kid is one, as are his parents, all strongly introverted. I don’t really see how being in clubs and doing competitions is different from being in class and taking tests, or interacting with people at work. Some math competitions are team affairs, but most are not. If a kid is uncomfortable in all these situations, that’s social anxiety, not just introversion, and should be addressed with therapy (I wish I did this when I was a kid).

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@socaldad2002 Here is a different, more complete definition of an introvert: https://introvertdear.com/what-is-an-introvert-definition/

Some things to note:

"Being introverted means socializing wears you out. You might not be nervous or shy at all."AND “Introverts are not necessarily socially awkward”

My introverts are not shy around people. They just don’t like unnecessary or trite social interactions. If they have something to say they will say it. If not, they will remain quiet and observe what is going on around them. Neither is socially awkward. Shy and socially awkward are two different traits. Many extroverts are socially awkward because they NEVER SHUT UP! People who are socially awkward need help gaining appropriate social skills. Introverts do not always need therapy. Most just need to have a good balance of social time and alone time that works for them.

“You’d rather hang out with a few close friends than a large group of people”-This is a huge one for my introverts. They both have friends and go out often but they don’t love huge parties. My oldest is at an age when many of his friends are getting married. He seems to be handling it well but I noticed he is home more in the evenings (often texting me about baseball).

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@marvin100 thanks, that article was very interesting!

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Just saying, ok? What bugs me is a lot of these Google articles still refer to introverts as somehow not keeping up. Even above, the idea of being worn out. Or the article’s “drained” or feeling “different.” While that may be true, it implies they aren’t really “normal.” Even though this article tries to assure they are, still those impression-making words.

We really need to see this as less about firm labels and more about style. Or a continuum of styles. In different circumstances, we all have different strengths we can muster and points at which we retreat. And many, many intoverts have learned to recognize and draw on their strengths, as well as how they recover. (Just as many extroverts learn what’s appropriate when.)

It’s not all about the extremes. I know people so shy and socially uncomfortable they can’t say hello. That’s an extreme. I know many others who could pull off highly interactive events but recharge more contemplatively, rather than via another social event.

In the case of admissions, if a college wants an interactive community, if they’re looking for how kids engage, reach out, can be good friends, nothing in that says “introverts,” as an entire group, face prejudice. Nothing says you have to be the cheerleader, the kid jumping up and down at the concert, or the one who takes over every project. You can have interests where you lead and others where you follow. It’s an asset to be thoughtful, self aware, and other similar qualities. Plenty of kids on campus are heads down into their own work, own interests, and friends like them. It’s fine.

Obviously, the extreme social discomfort is different, if it paralyzes. But likewise, the sort of extrovert who isn’t reflective, is maybe too aggressive, can be an issue. In the middle, there’s room for all sorts.

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Did it ever occur to anyone that may be extroverts are the ones with a problem? This need to shine, be center of attention, to be heard, to be praised, to be seen, to be followed, to be liked, to control can be a symptom of some underlying insecurity?

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None of those things are defining characteristics of extraversion. (You seem to have confused the concept of extraversion with narcissism)

Extraverts tend to be outgoing. They enjoy socializing, attending parties, and other events that draw a crowd. But that doesn’t make them self-centered or attention-seeking. Quite the opposite. Their outward focus often manifests in being more focused on the needs of others, more likely to go out of their way to help friends in need, more likely to be the one others can call on for support.