Online application debate

carolyn · November 2, 2005, 2:49pm

Apparently there was some heated debate about online applications among college admissions professionals at this week's College Board annual meeting.
<a href="http://insidehighered.com/news/2005/11/02/online%5B/url%5D">http://insidehighered.com/news/2005/11/02/online</a>

sjmom2329 · November 2, 2005, 3:07pm

[quote]
A good college admissions process is not like computer dating its like love letters, said Theodore A. ONeill, dean of admissions at the University of Chicago. He said that current trends in online applications take away students individuality and result in generic and utterly boring essays.

[/quote]

What an interesting article, Carolyn! While I would have to say that technology made my son's application process easier last year, I think that the ability to replicate applications and essays has led to some of the craziness in admissions today. If a student had to type, or handwrite, each application and essay, I believe that there would be a little more thoughtful consideration given to the college list. The common app makes it easy to add more schools, and word processing software (which I love!) makes it simple to modify existing essays and short answers for use in yet another application. Not that I'm in favor of this (I believe in free markets), but if kids were limited to 4-6 applications, maybe some aspects of the admissions process could be a little more humane. If Harvard gets 22K applications each year, how personalized can the selection be? This also leads to a stats-heavy gating mechanism, just to filter the possible contenders out from the huge number of applicants.

A.S.A.P · November 2, 2005, 3:35pm

Thanks for the link, Carolyn. If my son were applying to Chicago, I would certainly advise him to use their own app, and to send it in by snail mail, poor handwriting and all. He probably wouldn't take my advise, however.

I tend to agree with the comment that the students will be setting the agenda, and convenience is an important factor to them. With the number of applications needed to insure acceptance somewhere, the common and online application will remain popular for kids, and is a real timesaver. How many parents applied to 8 or more schools just to be sure we had a place to go to college? I remember two applications... a reach a sure bet.

Computer technology is here to stay, and our children are much better at using it to their advantage than most of us parents are. If most kids are like my son, a school that preferred a handwritten, individual application would not get one from him. I hate to make sweeping generalizations based on gender, but I'll bet that more young men than women would share his preference for the online application.

mootmom · November 2, 2005, 3:57pm

I'm going out on a limb here, perhaps, and saying that I don't like the use of the Common App. I have no problem with online submission of applications, and perhaps a single HIGHLY DETAILED set of stats, courses, ECs, etc. which all schools could share might save a bit of busy work. But I prefer to see my kids answering specific prompts and submitting something to each school they apply to, which is relevant to their interest in and perceived fit at each of those schools.

Yeah, so it's more work for them. I think they ought to put some work into each application. That will likely make the consideration of each school, and the decision they receive in the spring, more meaningful. IMNSHO.

A.S.A.P · November 2, 2005, 4:16pm

mootmom - the highly detailed set of stats, courses, ECs ect. which all schools share IS, I think, the Common Application.

Almost all schools also require a supplement which is tailored to the school complete with essay questions and "Why this college" short answers. All the Common App does is allow the students to submit the information that all schools want in one format. I agree that it's not the most personal format, and I don't like the short EC spaces, but I do think the supplements are where the students take the time to personalize the application. Every non-UC school my son is applying to requires a fairly detailed supplement with at least one essay, and usually several short essays (answers) as well.
I think the common app just eliminates some of the duplication.
I think the question here, though, is online vs hand-done, or typewritten. At least that seems to be a complaint of the Uof C dean.

momof2inca · November 2, 2005, 5:15pm

I think O'Neill's point is that the Common Application process is driving out individuality, not necessarily that the technology of online applications is.

Chicago has its own highly individual application and doesn't take the Common App. When S applied last year EA he used the online app. and was accepted. His essays reflected his individuality and even though we tried to find ways to use them for other schools, we couldn't. They were specific to UofC's questions, which is the whole point. If I were an adcom of a school that turns away thousands of applicants every year, I would want a unique application process, if only to see which applicants really care enough to do the extra work.

momof2inca · November 2, 2005, 5:26pm

from the article:

<<oneill called="" on="" colleges="" to="" reject="" the="" common="" application,="" a="" single="" form="" that="" can="" be="" used="" by="" students="" apply="" any="" of="" 276="" competitive="" colleges.="" more="" and="" have="" been="" accepting="" in="" part="" because="" it="" appears="" result="" an="" immediate="" increase="" number="" applications="" they="" receive="" ="" if="" enough="" those="" applicants,="" extra="" points="" for="" their="" u.s.="" news="" ranking.="">></oneill>

White_Materia · November 2, 2005, 5:50pm

U.S News Rankings. I believe it should be gone. College admissions should not be focusing on marketing to as many students as possible so they can reject them.

ohio_mom · November 2, 2005, 6:26pm

The online UChicago application suggests some lengths but enables you to cut and paste in some pretty long essays and short (ahem) answers. They also do not discourage submission of supplemental materials, as some other institututions do. So - while Ted O'Neill may prefer paper apps on a personal level, his online application does not put as many barriers in place (e.g., character length restrictions) as some do.

In general, I think that if your application will 'look' better in hard copy, and the school does not discourage its submission, it may help in a sort of marginal fashion - gives the impression that you care. And, in any case, I think it is better to submit 6 good applications than 12 'ok' ones.

The other real danger with online applications has to do with proofing. Virtually everything should be run through spell-check AND carefully proofed by hand BEFORE it is pasted in. Identifying an error after you hit submit is soooo depressing.

xiggi · November 2, 2005, 7:31pm

"ONeill called on colleges to reject the Common Application, a single form that can be used by students to apply to any of 276 competitive colleges. More and more colleges have been accepting the Common Application, in part because it appears to result in an immediate increase in the number of applications they receive and if they reject enough of those applicants, extra points for their U.S. News ranking."

"U.S News Rankings. I believe it should be gone. College admissions should not be focusing on marketing to as many students as possible so they can reject them."

People like to jump on bandwagons ... without really knowing where the parade is heading.

We have to read -with great regularity- about the nefarious impact of marketing in college applications. However, does anyone REALLY pay attention to the impact of the acceptance ratio on the USNews ranking. Oh yes, the paltry 10% of the 15% assigned to selectivity must indeed destroy the rankings and the entire integrity of the admission's process. Let alone that the remaining 98.5% is riddled with subjective and easily manipulated elements, people prefer to direct their attention to a rather insignificant factor and fuel the growing ignorant heresy.

No wonder that Chicago had this prompt in 2004-2005:

[quote]
Albert Einstein once said, The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Propose your own original theory to explain one of the 16 mysteries below. Your theory does not need to be testable or even probable; however, it should provide some laws, principles, and/or causes to explain the facts, phenomena, or existence of one of these mysteries. You can make your theory artistic, scientific, conspiracy-driven, quantum, fanciful, or otherwise ingeniousbut be sure it is your own and gives us an impression of how you think about the world.

Love Non-Dairy Creamer Sleep and Dreams Gray
Crop Circles The Platypus The Beginning of Everything Art
Time Travel Language The End of Everything The Roanoke Colony
Numbers Mona Lisa's Smile The College Rankings in U.S. News and World Report Consciousness

[/quote]

On the topic of the Common Admission, I fail to understand why it deserves so much criticism. If Chicago prefers to remain the quirky and different institution it is, power to them. If students who think they'll feel at home at the school do not mind slaving through the Chicago version of an application, power to them. But, why would the rest of the universe have to be subject to Chicago boundless love of individuality and originality?

I also reject the notion that the Common Application is unncessarily stifling or limiting. After all, there are multiple choices of prompts, including a wide-open one. In addition, schools have no limitation to add extra requirements. So, what is the big deal?

This said, if someone is truly nervous about the choices between online versus paper applications or common application versus the college's own version, the answer is easy .... by all means, use the college form and fill it by hand with typed essays.

I believe that too much importance is given to the form of the application. The most important elements are the CONTENTS. And if a few years of reading CC posts provide a small indication, it seems that a lot more could be done to ameliorate the contents, especially the essays.

PS I wonder if the good Mr. O'Neill would provide some insight in the ratio of time spent by students on HIS version of the application and the review time devoted by his staff on each one. My guess is that it is between 50 and 200 to 1? Considering the time requirements, I shudder at the thought that all applications might become Chicago-wannabes. In response, high schools may sonn have to add a special senior class in "How to interpret and fill a successful application."

White_Materia · November 2, 2005, 8:25pm

Look Xiggi, I don't mind that you disagree with my opinion but you don't have to go out of your way to be an arse. It's pretty damn arrogant to blatantly sprout others off as "ignorant" because your opinion differs from their's.

[quote]
The U.S. News rankings, unlike some other such lists, create a strict hierarchy of colleges and universities in their "top tier," rather than ranking only groups or "tiers" of schools; the individual schools' order changes significantly every year the rankings are published. The most important factors in the rankings are:

1.) Peer assessment: a survey of the institution's reputation among presidents, provosts, and deans of admission of other institutions.

2.) Retention: six-year graduation rate and first-year student retention rate

3.) Student selectivity: standardized test scores of admitted students, proportion of admitted students in upper percentiles of their high-school class, and proportion of applicants accepted.

4.) Faculty resources: average class size, faculty salary, faculty degree level, student-faculty ratio, and proportion of full-time faculty.

5.) Financial resources: per-student spending.

6.) Graduation rate performance: difference between expected and actual graduation rate.

7.) Alumni giving rate

All these factors are combined according to statistical weights determined by U.S. News. The weighting is often changed by U.S. News from year to year, and is not empirically determined (the NORC methodology review said that these weights "lack any defensible empirical or theoretical basis"). The first four such factors account for the great majority of the U.S. News ranking (80%, according to U.S. News's 2005 methodology.

[/quote]

I don't think selectivity is an insignificant factor in the U.S News and World Report rankings. I think it is a huge part of how the rankings are done and colleges are extraordinarily pressured by these rankings to market themselves so their acceptance rates are low and yield rates are high.

SV2 · November 2, 2005, 8:35pm

Ted O"Neil is one of the essayist featured in the book,College Unranked, who decries the increased commercialization of college admissions and whom I quote in this other thread:

<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=110523%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=110523</a>

xiggi · November 2, 2005, 9:03pm

White Materia, it is not a matter of disagreeing with your position or not. As far as being an arse about it, allow me to rephase it in a way you can understand it.

The acceptance rate only accounts for 1.5% -being 10% of 15%. Your lengthy quotation does not address this fact.

Your last comment, despite the editing, still illustrates that you do not know how the methodology used by US News to develop the rankings really works. Do yourself a favor by checking it out.

Heck, I'll even give you the link:

<a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/weight_brief.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/weight_brief.php</a>

Peer assessment 25%
Faculty resources (2004) 20%
Graduation and retention rate 20% 
Financial resources 10% 
Alumni giving 5% 
Graduation rate performance 5%

Student selectivity (Fall 2004 entering class) 15%
Subfactor Weight
Acceptance rate 10%
High school class standing 40% 
SAT/ACT scores 50%

White_Materia · November 2, 2005, 9:37pm

That certainly differs from the information I read about U.S News. Although that still does not change my opinion about the rankings and how it affects the admissions process for all applicants and colleges. But I think we're derailing from the topic of the thread...

I think O'Neill makes some good points but I am in the process of creating applications now and having the Common App makes the whole shindig less stressful. Like I am going through so much right now in regards to academics and my hobbies, writing out 10 applications on paper would drive me nuts.

A.S.A.P · November 2, 2005, 10:34pm

My sense from his comments is that it's not just the common application but is the online technology itself that is the problem.
The supplements to the common app are certainly individualized enough. Take Whitman College, for example. Along with the common app and the major essay and short essay on that form, they also require that the student submit a graded English paper, as well as write another essay on their own prompt. On top of this they also ask the applicant to write about any other contributions they have made to their school that might help them make a decision, (or something similar). In all, they want two full essays and two shorter ones, as well as a graded submission. It doesn't seem to me like the common application is stopping any college from getting the information it wants from it's applicants.
</a>

makeyourselfxo · November 3, 2005, 8:56am

Oh man, this just strengthens my love for UChicago:

You cant underline a bloody title? Thats not trivial to people who care about words.

I talked to about five teachers about substitutes for underlining and italicizing for the UChicago essays. Some of them told me it was OK to use quotes but that just wasn't grammatically correct so I had to experiment a little with how to make the titles stand out so that it wouldn't be confusing.

johnleemk · November 3, 2005, 11:48am

What really makes me love UChicago is the prompt xiggi posted. That was just beautiful - it's the sort of question I'd kill to answer. It's so whacky and reflects my whacky, idiosyncratic way of thinking.

dmd77 · November 3, 2005, 12:19pm

Umm, Xiggi and White Materia... do the math: 10% of 15% is only 1.5% assigned to acceptance rate. So it's not a major factor.

"Peer assessment 25%
Faculty resources (2004) 20%
Graduation and retention rate 20%
Financial resources 10%
Alumni giving 5%
Graduation rate performance 5%

"Student selectivity (Fall 2004 entering class) 15%
Subfactor Weight
Acceptance rate 10%
High school class standing 40%
SAT/ACT scores 50%"

jmmom · November 3, 2005, 12:57pm

I believe that evidence like curmudgeon's is growing by leaps and bounds, putting me right there in the camp of xiggi. It is, in fact, the content not the form. Several years ago,The Gatekeepers took us inside the deliberations room with the adcoms where kids key descriptors were summarized on little index cards. Today, more and more schools have given us the inside glimpse that GPA's are recalculated into their form by data entry staff, other info is key entered or scanned, etc.

We need to relax about the form, the format, online vs hard copy and let our kids focus on the content and use the form which is easiest for them. I just don't believe there is any longer an "edge" for beauty of presentation. More and more the presentation will be in a scanned computerized format that the school uses for the express purpose of having every kid's info show up in the same place in the same way. These folks are reading hundreds if not thousands of files and what they want is anything which makes it easier for them to process and read.

What will stand out is what the kid brings to the table, not whether the table was set ala Martha Stewart vs. inelegant but perfectly servicable paper and plastic.

lderochi · November 3, 2005, 12:59pm

Regarding the 1.5%, I think that's what Xiggi said in the first place. White Materia's quote implied a much higher value that is placed on admission rate, but appears to go against US News' statements.

On the overall gist of O'Neill's comments I have to say that he seems to be waaay over-reacting. What is the big deal? A college's application is going to have 90-95% in common with any other college's applicaton. And given the ability to require supplements with the Common App -- I just don't see his point. He wants the applicant to write on one of their prompts? Fine, put an additional mandatory essay in the Supplement. The only response I can give to his overblown blustering that "You cant underline a bloody title? Thats not trivial to people who care about words" is -- oh grow up and stop arguing just for the sake of hearing yourself argue. It's a college application, not a dissertation. Are you really telling me that it's difficult to get a real feel for an applicant because he or she can't underline a bloody title? Sure it would be nice if the Common App were to have this capability, but it's not the end of the English language as we know it.

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