Online application debate

Parents Forum
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<p>
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Sigh....the message is really about BORING essays, not UNFORMATTED essays.Sigh....

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<p>But that's the whole point. There are some very interesting essays that don't fit into the common app because the latter is so inflexible.</p>

<p>Yes, poetry is the exception. But there are other kids who do unusual things with their essays, turning them into play scripts or whatever. That is a great part of what made my son's essay interesting and not boring. The online tool simply doesn't allow for that. At the very least, the online apps should be improved to allow for a great deal more flexibility.</p>

<p>So far son has not used the common app at all. If there is a choice, he uses the school app. Yes, he is stressed out with a heavy schedule, ap's, no study halls, play practice for hours every night....but, if something is worth doing, it's worth doing well. And it has made him think about where he is applying and cross some names off the list.</p>

<p>I would be very sorry to see all the individuality ironed out of the application process by specifying that every college should use the common app. If a school wants to use it, fine. But if another school doesn't use it, that is even better. I see too much of the cookie-cutter approach in life and applaud a school that asks a student to do something different. It's possible to do some individualizing with supplements to the common app. It's even more possible to do interesting things with a unique app, especially in terms of essays.</p>

<p>The essays are the heart of the Chicago application. They don't want or need the 5 choices listed on the common app. They give students choices, one out of about 4. Some topics were developed by other Chicago students. That way they have a common base to compare but also "compel" the student to write an essay where they absolutely must show intellect or creativity. To put it bluntly, some kids love the Chicago essays and others hate them. If a student heartily dislikes those essays, my guess is that they will also dislike the school. In that case, they need to look for a better match. I think it's an amazing thing to have an application that so closely mirrors the soul of the school that a student can tell by doing that if they "belong" there. That does not happen with the common app.</p>

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<p>But couldn't a student choose to write on a UC topic under the "Topic of your choice" selection on the Common App? Or couldn't UC require a Supplemental essay if they feel it mirrors the soul of the school? Putting aside the formatting issue, which I agree needs to be more flexible, O'Neil's blustering still strikes me as much ado about nothing. </p>

<p>I just don't feel like the Common App irons out the individuality of any school's application process. 90-95% of the application process for most schools (including UC) doesn't really HAVE any individuality, and the very important 5-10% that does can be accomodated by the Common App.</p>

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<p>UC asks for two minor essays and one major one. The two minor essays are "why Chicago" and "discuss a favorite book, piece of music, work of art, etc. - your choice." These could be accomodated by a supplemental app.</p>

<p>What could not be accomodated is the main essay. This is the heart of the application and is counted very heavily. If you'll look at UC acceptances and rejections from last year, they are very different from other comparably ranked schools. A chunk of kids got in with 1300s on the SAT; another chunk got rejected with 1550 plus. That is because they truly mean it when they say that test scores are less imporant than the essays. </p>

<p>The UC essay is not restrictive in terms of the number of words: it simply does not specify what you should do. Ask an adcom and you'll get differing advice. Some kids do 500 word essays; others write 1500 word ones. The number frankly doesn't matter. They also give you the option of checking off a box to submit your essay by snail mail if you require formatting not available on the online site. Son did an 800-word poem and submitted it, correctly formatted, by snail mail. That would have been impossible on the common app.</p>

<p>The UC people don't want you to spend time doing one of the essay choices listed on the common app. (Even with a supplement, you'd have to do one of the common app essays so that is not going to work for them.) They want you to focus on the choices they give you. They give you about 4 choices--varying prompts. This year, the essay prompts included a discussion of string theory, selections from Langston Hughes, a medieval haiku, and something else I can't remember! </p>

<p>I am not saying that every school needs to have its own app. The common app is easy and convenient. But it seems to me we have to acknowlege that we've lost flexibility and individuality by having everyone pump out the same paper stuff.</p>

<p>And by the way....it isn't only in the essays that the Chicago app is different. There is no room for test scores, ap scores, or to list honors. Obviously, they will get the SAT or ACT scores separately. You can stick them into the additional information session. I don't think their absence from the main app is an oversight. They are trying to tell you something about the school. Ted O'Neill may be a gadfly. He may be taking a more extreme position than I would want to take. But we need some Cassandra's out there telling us things we don't like to hear. The Common App does iron out differences. Even with supplements, the college is ** compelled ** to ask for each student to fill out one of the five essay choices. </p>

<p>I have taught in colleges and served as a faculty rep with the admissions office with a small LAC. College freshmen are not interchangeable parts! From that perspective, I would like to see every college think through what they're looking for and come up with an app that really reflects their differing goals and ideals. This is what Chicago has done. Realistically, that's not going to happen. But that doesn't mean it's not a goal we shouldn't be striving to reach.</p>

<p>Many people have conjectured that, if Chicago used the common app and binding ED or even SCEA, they would be flooded with applicants. Their admitance rate and yield would soar and so would their ranking. However, they refuse to do that. As it is, only the strong hearted and very determined apply to Chicago. I applaud Chicago for its refusal to change and I'd like to see a few more schools out there who aren't simply sheep following along with the herd.</p>

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<p>UC prides itself on being an unCommon University and so I agree with Cami that it is congruent from them and true to who they have always been. It certainly doesn't really hurt their standing in any way that I can see that really matters. Staying independent allows for a kind of self-selection that works for their admissions process, I think. (They almost always have at least one wildly imaginative essay prompt that brings a grin to my face just reading it..</p>

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<p>Just a couple of comments:</p>

<ol>
<li>The adoption of the Common Application results in a flood of application. One can see the change in the number of applications at Cornell to support such statement. However, to see a change in SELECTIVITY you need a LOT more than a rising application number, you also need a rise in percentage of top ten students and SAT scores. Please see prior discussion on the VERY minimal impact of the acceptance ratio on the selectivity index. Obviously, the yield has been irrelavant for several years.<br></li>
</ol>

<p>Also, when looking at Cornell, one should know that the application numbers vary from one college to another. As it happens, the most selective college has the highest acceptance rate because of its self-selection. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>The adoption of SCEA or ED results is a boost of applications.
One could refer to the historical changes in the applications at HArvard to know that the best way to see application skyrocket is to implement an EA policy. More restrictive early admissions result in ... relatively fewer applications. </p></li>
<li><p>In regard to the essays at Chicago
I really do not understand what would preclude UC to use the CA and ask for different supplements, if the different prompts/essays are THAT important. FWIW, while I find the quirkiness of the prompts "different," I do not find them THAT remarkable. I assume that is why the call the school self-selective: someone annoyed by the prompts will probably not find the school his or her cup of tea! However, I believe that is little doubt that there is no WORSE prompt in college history than the type. "Why would you attend XYZ college" or the even simple "Why XYZ college". What kind of imagination did go in such a trite and hackneyed prompt? </p></li>
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<p>In my opinion, while there is problem for UC to be different, the same attitude becomes offensive when the school officials start to preach for an abandonment of a process that serves hundreds of schools and thousands of students very WELL. I, for one, found my respect and affection for the school eroded by the self-centered comments of O'Neill.</p>

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<p>Ah, but how well is the common app actually serving them? It increases the ease of applying - and encourages multiple applications. If these applications are well-considered, ok, but I think the tendency may well be to direct them to more and more reaches (why not, its common app, only need a supplement). The more applications - the less time to consider them on individual merits.</p>

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What could not be accomodated is the main essay. This is the heart of the application and is counted very heavily. If you'll look at UC acceptances and rejections from last year, they are very different from other comparably ranked schools.

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My son applied Early Action to the University of Chicago and was accepted. Of course, he used their own application but he used the same basic essay he used for the Common App and other colleges' unique applications, responding to a prompt like, "Create and answer your ideal question." He wrote the essay before he saw ANY prompts, and just wrote what he thought colleges should know about him. Writing about a gigantic jar of mustard would have seemed ridiculous to him, and would not have provided any additional insight to his academic interests or personality. In fact, aspects of his short answers seemed very rough around the edges to me, but it was his application, and I thought I shouldn't try to get him to reshape it to meet my idea of what it should say. I don't think that the Common App showed him in any different light, really. And fwiw, I think he would have really had a great experience at U of Chicago, but their financial aid was not as generous as schools which were nearer to home, and were actually somewhat more selective. We just couldn't see that he would have a better experience there than he is at his current school.</p>

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<p>Ohio_Mom,</p>

<p>I agree with you. There are many factors behind the precipitous rise in the number of applications that students are making. As numbers of applicants rise, "reaches" seem to become more unreachable and the natural impulse is to scatter out more applications to try and cover your bases. I can certainly appreciate this, but there comes a point when the whole process becomes ridiculous. There is another site where students list the schools they have applied to. I am always amazed to see the number of students applying to 13 or more schools. I do think the common app has contributed to this whole problem. I can see it even within our own family.</p>

<p>Xiggi and SJmom -- I am still going to be a curmudgeon on this, and we may well have to agree to disagree. I honestly don't think O"Neill seriously expected other schools to jump and march to his drum instantaneously. No one is putting a gun to their heads! But there are times when it is important to raise questions, even uncomfortable questions. For one thing, this discussion would not even be taking place if the issue had not been raised. I honestly see many shortcomings in the common app, and I think that Chicago would have a hard time conveying the flavor of the school by simply tacking on a supplement to the common app. If nothing else, every student would have to complete one of the 5 Common App essay as well as those required on a supplemental form by the school. </p>

<p>Just to set the record straight. I am not now nor have I ever been a graduate of UC! (My undergrad degree is from a small LAC and my main grad degree from Brown. I turned down a chance to attend UC because the professor I wanted to do my doctorate with was at another school. ) My son is applying to Chicago EA plus other schools RD. I have no idea where he will end up. But I do see some wisdom in O'Neill's words, even if they were framed in rather extreme terms.</p>

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<p>Cami, there is no problem to agree to disagree. However, while I we have to rely on the article quoted by the OP, I believe there is little dispute about the intent of O'Neill when "[He] called on colleges to reject the Common Application, a single form that can be used by students to apply to any of 276 competitive colleges." I reread the entire article and I still cannot see where O'Neill words carry as much wisdom as a veiled dosis of hypocrisy and wishful thinking. For instance, if Chicago was so adamant about the lack of applicability of the SAT Writing, why not come out against it but with clear and precise words. How about such a line: "The UC voices its profound dismay about the inclusion of a writing test to the SAT. Accordingly, we recommend all students to take the ACT without the ACT Optional Writing." I am not about to go and find what where the past policies of Chicago regarding the SAT II Writing, but I would not surprised if it was considered by UC in their admission criteria. Also, if O'Neill hates the online application so much, why not ban it outright? After all, is he not in a position to make decisions for his own department? </p>

<p>To clarify a few of my comments, it is good to know that I never advocated for whimsical applications and have written several times about my dismay of seeing students applying to ALL eight Ivies and have their list lifted directly from the USNews. To show the total of my applications, I needed only ONE hand. However, I am pretty sure that I wrote well over 30 essays when counting the supplementary essays, the honor school extra requirements, and scholarship applications. IMHO, the absence or presence of a Common Application does little to deter a student to apply to 15 schools is that is his or her decision. On the other hand, I am not sure if a student can really give his best to such a high number of schools during the entire application process. </p>

<p>My conclusion has not changed much. I still think too much is made about the form and format of the applications. On the other hand, I also wish that schools would be more direct in their positions. For instance, Princeton should say they prefer the SAT over the ACT instead of crafting sybillic statements that need to be analyzed by all applicants.</p>

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<p>I think this section of an open letter posted on the UChicago website by Ted O'Neill last spring gives some insight as to why he feels the way he does. He has said that Chicago admits for its faculty, it is easy to see why. I wonder how many admissions deans teach?</p>

<p>"Spring, for me, means that I get to teach as a kind of break from the admissions work of the other seasons. Of course, there is no break from admissions work, just the addition of more and different work, which I consider a great privilege. The class I teach is a section of the Common Core sequence "Human Being and Citizen," a course which has been taught here for a long time as one of the six options in the Humanities Core. We started with Shakespeare's The Tempest, a curious play. "What is it?" is one of the questions the class felt it had to settle -- not a tragedy, not a history, but not a comedy, either. We know the young lovers get together in the end, which is a mark of comedy, but why do the unrepentant bad guys get off so easily? And what is Caliban, and what happens to him, and why? And how do we feel about it all? Today, in quite another direction, we worried about James Madison's contention in Federalist Paper #10 that "the protection of the diversity in the faculties of men is the first object of government. You can imagine that such a contention led to some thoughtful commentary from the class."</p>