OOS Students and the Public State Universities

College Search & Selection
21

<p>A,
The Insider Higher Ed article that began the thread deals with the topic of OOS students at public universities. I think it is a very relevant topic in today's difficult economic environment as students are looking for lower cost, but still high quality, college alternatives.</p>

<p>I gathered the information (OOS Tuition & Fees cost and % of OOS students) on the 25 most highly ranked public universities in the USA and then sorted it. Next thing I know, I'm being accused of bias which devolves into your post about the total cost of attendance and how publics and privates compare.</p>

22

<p>hawkette. Now why would anyone want to accuse you of bias? I'm shocked! By the way, you started this thread so it's fair game for Alexandre or anyone else to comment. The top 25 ranked public universities are NOT in the same league with each other compared to the top overall 25 universities in this country. Why even bother showing these numbers? You don't need to answer that, I already know why.</p>

23

<p>"The Insider Higher Ed article that began the thread deals with the topic of OOS students at public universities. I think it is a very relevant topic in today's difficult economic environment as students are looking for lower cost, but still high quality, college alternatives."</p>

<p>If that's true, then the oos public schools are better deals than the private schools.</p>

<p>I think all these schools are expensive.</p>

24

<p>Rjko,
I think your comments lack an appreciation for the quality and desirability and relatively lower cost of many good public universities. </p>

<p>You may not be aware, but folks from OOS are beating down the doors to get into U North Carolina. It is one of the toughest, if not the toughest, OOS admit for all public universities in the USA. Other than the U Michigan partisans, I think most folks would consider U North Carolina a peer school. U North Carolina is over $10,000 cheaper per year for OOS students.</p>

<p>Likewise, Georgia Tech is great bargain for OOS students, especially those interested in pursuing an engineering degree. I would hope that you would accept Ga Tech engineering as a peer school to U Michigan engineering. Georgia Tech is over $11,000 cheaper per year for OOS students. </p>

<p>Finally, in the Midwest, several of the major publics are attractively priced for OOS students. All are considerably less expensive than U Michigan’s $32,401 cost for OOS students, eg, U Illinois ($7000 less per year), Ohio State and U Wisconsin ($11,000 less per year) and U Minnesota ($18,000 less per year). I think that many in the Midwest might perceive the relative higher cost for U Michigan as inflated relative to the relative differences in the quality of the undergraduate academics delivered at U Illinois, Ohio State, U Wisconsin, and U Minnesota. </p>

<p>Congratulations again to you and your U Michigan for being the most expensive state university… by a wide margin… for OOS students. </p>

<p>dstark,
I agree that all of these schools are expensive. Maybe we should put academia on the same diet that is now being fed to Wall Street.</p>

25

<p>Academia does need to go on a diet. Wall Street needs to fast.</p>

26

<p>........and yet the PA of Duke, at only $4700.00 more per year, is only the same as Michigan. This is what I mean when I call you pompous hawkette. Michigan charges top dollar because Michigan can get top dollar. UNC is much smaller than U-M and takes far fewer OOS residents. So Michigan should do the same so they will appear better in your eyes?</p>

27

<p>rjko,<br>
Duke? Where did that come from? </p>

<p>I'm not even sure what we're arguing about at this point unless you are somehow using Duke's name in order to contend that U North Carolina is not a peer school to U Michigan. Is this U Michigan logic???</p>

28

<p>According to USNWR, the PA of Duke is 4.4 and the PA of Michigan is 4.4 Duke costs more $4700.00 more/year than Michigan for the same PA score rating.. I never stated that Michigan and UNC weren't peers. Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I will state that UMich and tOSU are NOT peers, which you seem to imply from your post above.</p>

29

<p>Earth to rjko. Duke? </p>

<p>This thread is: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/651939-oos-students-public-state-universities-2.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/651939-oos-students-public-state-universities-2.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

30

<p>Yes this thread, that you started to make Michigan look bad, is titled that. Alexandre called you to task and I backed him up. It's no secret that Duke is one of your favorite schools, so that's why I introduced it into this discussion. Sort of how you like to stick Michigan in every one of your negative posts.</p>

31

<p>@hawkette: the whole issue here stems from the fact that your list in the original post of this thread is inaccurate. If you check the actual USNWR rankings for public colleges (Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report), it shows the following:</p>

<ol>
<li>University of California--Berkeley</li>
<li>University of Virginia</li>
<li>University of California--Los Angeles</li>
<li>University of Michigan--Ann Arbor</li>
<li>University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill</li>
<li>College of William and Mary</li>
<li>Georgia Institute of Technology</li>
<li>University of Wisconsin--Madison</li>
<li>University of California--San Diego</li>
<li>University of Illinois--Urbana-Champaign</li>
<li>University of Washington</li>
<li>University of California--Davis</li>
<li>University of California--Santa Barbara</li>
<li>University of California--Irvine</li>
<li>University of Texas--Austin</li>
<li>Pennsylvania State University--University Park</li>
<li>University of Florida</li>
<li>University of Maryland--College Park</li>
<li>Ohio State University</li>
<li>University of Pittsburgh</li>
<li>University of Georgia</li>
<li>University of Minnesota--Twin Cities</li>
<li>Clemson University</li>
<li>Texas A&M University</li>
<li>Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey</li>
</ol>

<p>You seem to have deliberately shoved Michigan to the bottom of the list because you have a well-defined bias against it. This list doesn't necessarily mean anything - in fact, I believe all general college lists are garbage. But it is what it is, not what you want it to be.</p>

<p>I won't lie; I like what I've seen about Michigan. When I start applying to colleges in a bit over a year, I think Michigan will be one of my top picks. Why? Because the facts show strong academics and the name carries a great weight. When I say that I hope to go to the University of Michigan, people's eyes light up. I'm not saying that it is actually a better college than Minnesota (another place I'm interested in), but the name carries a stronger weight. Prestige is something that can't be quickly acquired, and it is something that many will pay a lot for. Michigan charges what they do because they have OOS students who will pay it.</p>

32

<p>Hawkette, why separate public universities from private universities when your post was about OOS students? Why wouldOOS students care about whether a school is public or private? To OOS students, all that matters is quality of education soince they are willing to forego in-state eligibility and tuition. So again, I think it is more relevant to compare universities of equal calibre. The top 50 universities in the US seems like a fair start. And again, why do you not include cost of living? Do you think that students do not pay for rent and food? Room and Board must be included in cost comparisons. For example Cooper Union is free, but attending it costs more than attending Georgia Tech because rent and food in NYC cost much more than rent and food in Atlanta.</p>

<p>So if one wishes to compare cost of attendance, they should probably look at a list of universities of equal quality and they should definitely consider cost of living expenses such as rent and food. When all is said and done, your ranking means very little.</p>

<p>And do not be surprised that others are accusing you of bias Hawkette. Your constant manipulation of facts and data to shove Michigan (and other elite non-Southern and Southeastern publics) near the bottom of any ranking is well documented. It should behoove you to intentionally show restraint when discussing those universities for which you have shown such little courtesy. That way, you would avoid being labled as biassed.</p>

33

<p>rjko,
Re your post #30, I started the thread to make U Michigan look bad??? </p>

<p>"Circle the wagons" cried the U Michigan conspiracy theorists. Those nasty folks at Inside Higher Ed had the audacity to publish an article discussing the impact of OOS students and their tuition dollars at state universities. And then someone (villainous me!) showed even greater cheekiness and created a thread on this topic and presented data on 25 public universities. And that impudent data (darn it!!) showed that U Michigan is the most expensive state university in the USA for OOS students. Who invited the skunk to the U Michigan CC pep rally???</p>

<p>I know it's fun to attack me for reporting the information, but a much more productive action would be to direct your energies towards U Michigan's administrators and get them to bring their OOS rates more in line with the rest of the country, even if only to the level of the next college in line (U Virginia).</p>

<p>noimagination,
I think your name says it all as your list of top public colleges is self-apparent. </p>

<p>I have never challenged U Michigan's status as one of the top state universities in the USA. If you like it, go there. It's a good school and could be a good choice for you. Contrary to the assertions of many U Michigan posters, I actually think highly of the school and regularly include it when I post on best colleges for the full undergraduate experience of academics/social life/athletic life. </p>

<p>My blasphemous sin, at least in the eyes of some U Michigan partisans, is that I actually think that other places are better. And I often even provide objective data points to support my arguments. </p>

<p>Alex,
If you think that the total cost of attendance merits greater consideration and that a student should be evaluating this in selecting a college, then I suggest you create a thread dedicated to this topic.</p>

34

<p>Hawkette, it's fine that you think there are better schools than Michigan. Hey. It's cold there. :)</p>

<p>But why so many posts on this subject?</p>

35

<p>
[quote]
a much more productive action would be to direct your energies towards U Michigan's administrators and get them to bring their OOS rates more in line with the rest of the country, even if only to the level of the next college in line (U Virginia).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Really? Why? Is this thread about providing bargains for OOS students? Is it about setting tuition policy? I thought this was about providing information--now it's about advocating a tuition change? I am not sure why you want to veer off into consumer advocacy for U-M nonresidents. </p>

<p>Should we also (in a separate thread) compare similarly-ranked privates and suggest the more expensive schools lower their tuition rates? Or do you only want people to lean on to U-M for change? </p>

<p>U-M is expensive. This is not a dirty little secret--it's a fact. But the fact is, domestic OOS students at Michigan each have the opportunity to attend a public institution, at significantly lower cost, in their home state. Or, if they can get in, they can also attend a public institution in OTHER states and pay less than they would at U-M, even as nonresidents. They've elected not to. </p>

<p>U-M does not owe nonresidents some different fee because it's public, or because it's more expensive than UVa, or because it's not as good as some people think it should be. I would love it if U-M were cheaper than it is for nonresidents, for a whole host of reasons. But not because some other prestigious, selective public institution charges lower tuition.</p>

36

<p>I will support Hawkette: it's her thread, and she can focus on publics if she desires. </p>

<p>IMO, the publics are easily beat by privates if for no other reason, state bureacracy which trickles down in a big way to each college. Pirvate schools at the level of UMich (and Cal) also have much, much better finaid. Thus, separate lists can make sense.</p>

37

<p>IMO, it depends on what the student wants.</p>

38

<p>dstark,
I'm with you about the amount of posts, but when you get continually and falsely attacked, you can only let it roll off your back so many times. </p>

<p>Personally, I'd rather stick to arguing the merits of the data rather than going on a witchhunt and trying to demonize those who might hold a different opinion. </p>

<p>And I agree that it's cold in Michigan. Valentine's Day forecast for Ann Arbor is snow showers, a high of 35 and a low of 22. </p>

<p>By contrast, in Chapel Hill, home of U North Carolina, it will be a high of 50 and a low of 37. </p>

<p>And in Austin, home of U Texas, it will be a high of 71 and a low of 55. And the U Texas baseball team has their season-opening intrasquad game on Sunday. It will be played outdoors under sunny skies and 74-degree temps. </p>

<p>hoedown,
Slow down there. I'm all for getting information out there and letting folks interpret and use it. That is how this thread was conceived. If you check the post sequence, the fur didn't begin to fly until some questioned the motive behind the thread's creation and how the data was presented.</p>

<p>As for your comment about other threads involving tuition rates and comparisons of privates and publics, go for it. You'll get no argument from me if you think such a topic merits it. </p>

<p>Finally, re desirability, I think it's great that U Michigan provides a high quality option to Michigan residents and some OOS students. However, you'd think from the tenor, and sometimes even the substance, of the posts here and your response that it is a unanimously acclaimed and accepted choice. I think that the school's yield of 43% might argue otherwise. Also, as you undoubtedly know, many state Us have higher yields, including U North Carolina (56%), U Virginia (52%), U Florida (63%), U Texas (54%). Heck, even Ohio State has a higher yield (49%).</p>

39

<p>"Finally, re desirability, I think it's great that U Michigan provides a high quality option to Michigan residents and some OOS students. However, you'd think from the tenor, and sometimes even the substance, of the posts here and your response that it is a unanimously acclaimed and accepted choice."</p>

<p>Before I found this board, I thought Michigan was a unanimously acclaimed and accepted choice.</p>

<p>Same with Virginia and Berkeley.</p>

<p>This doesn't mean every student would want to go to these schools. Many top students wouldn't want to go to Duke either.</p>

<p>I still don't get all the posts.</p>

<p>Some people love Michigan. Some people.
Therefore, they have to be told over and over that it is a good state school?</p>

40

<p>Good work hawkette on demonstrating to CC posters why yield should not to taken too seriously. Wow I didn't know that the high is going to be 35 degrees tomorrow around here. Nice balmy day for February. :-)</p>