<p>MahlerSnob- Thanks for the overview.. My son was considering it strictly as a paid short term summer gig, not for the institute itself.</p>
<p>thanks to all who replied re: Bard... a lot of stuff to think about.. new vs established programs, the various outcomes of the double major. etc.</p>
<p>violadad linked to this thread in another post, and I’d like to bump it to add some further context to earlier comments. This is not some attempt to restart a specific conversation that ended two years ago, but rather to add some insight so that anyone stumbling across this thread can benefit from a more recent perspective. </p>
<p>Here are my thoughts, in some sort of order:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>wmgan is doing very well here. He’s a top mathematics/computer science student, he sings in the opera chorus, he studies conducting, he runs the student-led musical theater group, and he remains a fantastic pianist. He played the Scriabin f# minor concerto on an American Symphony Orchestra subscription concert last year, and brought down the house. </p></li>
<li><p>Even though he’s my boss, I’d like to walk back several of Leon Botstein’s comments in the Chamber Music America article. The notion that enlightened dilettantes are the future of music presupposes some catastrophic collapse of the existing professional structure. The absolute top-tier ensembles aren’t really going anywhere. So when Bard faculty like Julie Landsman or Ira Weller retire from the Met Opera Orchestra, our plan is to contribute to the pool of musicians qualified to take their places. We are not a school for dabblers, smart people that play an instrument “pretty well,” etc. We have an intensive, pre-professional focus. Around 70% of our students plan on earning an MM in music; 30% are still deciding, or have already decided to pursue graduate work in another field. All play at a very high level. We don’t graduate the first class until next year, but summer festival acceptances place our students in with their peers at other highly selective music schools (getting in to Tanglewood, Yellow Barn, Quartet Program, Banff, Aspen, NY String Orch Seminar, Pacific Festival, Norfolk, Kneisel Hall, Bowdoin, etc.). I can confidently say these students will all have solid chances at admittance to many graduate programs next year. And I know that many of our students will ultimately earn their living as performers–at the same level as their current teachers. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>The point that I think Leon was trying to make is that underneath this elite superstructure of A-list music-making, an entirely different reality exists. The Major League players do very well for themselves–120K+ from the orchestra gig, another 50-75K from academic-year teaching, 20K from summer festival work, residuals from recordings, private studios of talented high school students, etc. Outside that realm, however, things are very different. ROPA players (Regional Orchestras) end up with public school gigs, sell real estate, teach yoga, do web design, etc. to flesh out a living. It’s not a bad life–and made much easier by having other marketable skills. And which life will a particular conservatory grad enjoy? The Major Leagues, or building a career with multiple skills and revenue streams? So much of this is dictated by simple labor economics–Stanley Drucker’s job has been stitched up since the Eisenhower administration. And until every city of 200,000+ people has an orchestra the size of one of the “Big 5,” we are stuck with this reality. There are many many other factors as well. No one in music is ever guaranteed a job for life. (Unless you play like Stanley Drucker, that is!) So rather than focus on the Chamber Music America article, I’d prefer to reference a more recent op-ed Leon Botstein wrote for the Wall Street Journal that strikes a more upbeat tone:
[The</a> Unsung Success of Live Classical Music - WSJ.com](<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122299103207600279.html?mod=googlenews_wsj#printMode]The”>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122299103207600279.html?mod=googlenews_wsj#printMode)</p>
<p>In addition, here is a good summary of the points I’ve made about the actual careers of performing musicians:
<a href=“http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/11/entertainment/ca-moonlight11[/url]”>http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/11/entertainment/ca-moonlight11</a></p>
<p>Finally, we strive to attract and train musicians at the highest professional level, and we see the value of a liberal arts education in developing musicians as artists and human beings. The double degree is not an obstacle or a distraction, but rather empowers talented young musicians to develop their full artistic capacities. Many of our graduates will distinguish themselves as performers, but this kind of education provides avenues for other lifestyles as well. Our point is that 17 is not the age someone should start closing doors, never taking another mathematics course, or ever taking a philosophy course. Graduate study is the appropriate time to put on the blinders and “focus,” the same as in medicine or law. Gifted musicians need and deserve something resembling a college education, whether it comes from a program like ours our through self-study. It makes them more interesting performers in the long run. Music from the Inside Out demonstrates this fact–even those Philly Orchestra players that went to Curtis have many talents and gifts outside the mere technical execution of their instruments. We want to provide a place where this kind of intense musical training is coupled with freedom to pursue and enrich the mind–without feeling guilty or burned out in the process.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>A little, probably petty point, but many of our faculty live much closer to Bard than the other schools at which they teach. Some have a place in the city, and then a place up here. Our preference at this point is for active performers, rather than resident, full-time faculty. Studio Instruction is 13 hours total each semester, and we employ no teaching assistants. Our faculty roster includes many big names, so here’s how it actually works. Take piano, for instance. All piano majors have a primary teacher, either Melvin Chen or Jeremy Denk. They then see Peter Serkin on occasion (last semester was 3 times for each and every student). Most semesters 3-4 students are chosen to play in a public master class for Richard Goode; this semester all pianists will play for him. The master classes do not take the place of regular lessons. Not every one thinks we’re close to the city–we’re certainly not across the street from the Met–but it is two hours door-to-door from my office to Lincoln Center. Our campus forms a regular part of the NY Times’ arts beat, and most people who live in the Hudson Valley don’t consider Manhattan some far-off country, but travel there regularly. </p></li>
<li><p>The summer Conductors Institute bears no resemblance to the activities that take place during the academic year. The institute pre-dates the Conservatory.</p></li>
<li><p>No American student has transferred out of the Conservatory. (We have accepted transfer students from Lawrence, Northwestern, Rutgers, and some European conservatories). Students that have left have been international students that did not see the value in the academic component of the program. They are now at Colburn and Juilliard. We can’t make everyone happy, and we’re certainly not for everyone, but I am pleased that we’ve attracted strong musicians from other schools, and that we’ve had zero attrition from students with American high school backgrounds. I stress this point because other double-degree programs (with the exception of perhaps Oberlin) come across as some kind of superhuman effort. In reality, any student capable of completing a music program at Rice, Michigan, USC, Northwestern, et al can handle the program here. We’re 100% committed to the idea, and do everything we can administratively to make it work. </p></li>
<li><p>This program is not very old. It is still growing. No one has attempted this before–we do many other things differently than just the double degree. It is not perfect. But we are attracting seriously talented players. I cannot go into full details as the letters haven’t gone out, but this coming year I anticipate an entering class of truly extraordinary musicians. To come here, all of them will be turning down offers from the top top schools, conservatories and Ivies. I’ll post a profile of our incoming class after May 1st, to help prospective students and parents see that accomplished musicians are willing to take a chance on us, and are bringing a sense of adventure and discovery to our campus this fall.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>N8Ma: What an interesting and well-stated post! I wish your program much success and am watching from the sidelines to see how and whether a percussion program develops.</p>
<p>N8Ma, I’ll second Linde, and I’m glad you’ve updated some information. Nice job. I think it is important forum participants have a “from the source” point of information, especially one that expands beyond a boilerplate marketing effort.</p>
<p>And I wish the program, and your students success.</p>
<p>I wish we had more input from professionals and educators!</p>
<p>N8Ma–Thank you so much for your post. If you have the time, I would be very interested in hearing why Bard has elected not to offer voice at the undergraduate level. Is that in future plans, and if so, when? Thank you</p>
<p>I enjoyed N8Ma’s post a lot. Even with the big disclaimer that (s)he’s getting paid to plug the school on this board, it still read very accurate, honest, and genuine. There’s a good point implied somewhere in there that while Bard might not be the absolute best at preparing someone for music (to the extent of say Juilliard) but it does attempt to prepare someone well for ‘life’.</p>
<p>However, I do think it’s a bit inaccurate for Bard’s music program to bill themselves as a ‘conservatory’. The very definition of a conservatory is that they devote themselves solely and purely to music. Bard’s program seems to be founded on the very idea that music is only half of what they do.</p>
<p>Stephmin: You said “However, I do think it’s a bit inaccurate for Bard’s music program to bill themselves as a ‘conservatory’. The very definition of a conservatory is that they devote themselves solely and purely to music.”</p>
<p>By that logic, Oberlin, Peabody, Eastman & Lawrence wouldn’t count as conservatories, nor CIM or CCM, or NEC or Juilliard in their joint programs - if a student is doing a double degree. As far as I can tell from our research - the Conservatory at Bard is separate from the college in most ways (the composition department overlaps.) The professors in the conservatory, except for the composition professors, only teach conservatory students. The requirements for the BM are as stringent and extensive as any stand alone conservatory. The difference is that the Conservatory is inherently supportive of all their students studying for a separate degree in the college, and they expect the program to take 5 years to finish.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I am a he.</p></li>
<li><p>We’re working very hard on percussion for 2010. Harp is already in place (we’ve hired Bridget Kibbey and Sarah Cutler). Watch this space.</p></li>
<li><p>When we approached Dawn Upshaw, the idea was for her to create a program that centered around her interests. Implicit in this was the idea to offer training that couldn’t be had elsewhere. From the beginning, her idea was to have a very small group of singers on the cusp of entering the profession, and to give this small group the freedom to explore singing from a variety of angles. The voice faculty are already busily engaged teaching undergraduates at NEC, Juilliard, and MSM. All of this explains why we don’t offer a BM in voice. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>(And just as an aside, it’s NOT a new music shop. I occasionally read applications from people who say they’re only interested in singing Berio, Golijov, Earl Kim, and Saariaho, thinking that’s what we want to hear. Wrong!)</p>
<p>* thought I’d continue my earlier thoughts with this post… *</p>
<p>stephmin brings up a very good point. Is this a conservatory? Yes and no. The full name of the school is “The Bard College Conservatory of Music.” College and Conservatory aren’t hyphenated to demonstrate equivalency (as with CCM when it merged). The Conservatory is an academic unit within the College. </p>
<p>Moving from syntax to semantics, basically we’re in the business of synthesizing water and oil. Look at the way conservatory is typically defined in a dictionary, and compare that with liberal arts. </p>
<p>Liberal Arts: college or university curriculum aimed at imparting general knowledge and developing general intellectual capacities in contrast to a professional, vocational, or technical curriculum. (Encyclopedia Britannica)
Conservatory: a school specializing in one of the fine arts (Merriam Webster)</p>
<p>By definition, liberal arts curricula are meant to eschew vocational training. Conservatory training seeks to accomplish the opposite (if it isn’t directly applicable, it is a distraction and shouldn’t be taught). </p>
<p>The 19th century European conservatory model presumed completion of a general education in languages, philosophy, and literature. When we imported this model to the United States, we did not bring the secondary system of education with it. The overwhelming majority of American students–even those attending very good schools–have not really gone though the series of “Great Books” that comprise the first-year experience at a liberal arts college. Look at Bard’s First Year Seminar to see what I mean: [First-Year</a> Seminar Syllabus 2007-2008](<a href=“http://inside.bard.edu/firstyear/syllabus/]First-Year”>http://inside.bard.edu/firstyear/syllabus/)</p>
<p>Some may have been covered through AP Lit, or European History. But certainly not all. Even the IB’s Theory of Knowledge doesn’t go this far. </p>
<p>But–do American musicians need to know any of this stuff to win an audition? This is the real question. </p>
<p>When you go back to that Chamber Music America article, and hear comments from administrators at Rice, Oberlin, and Curtis, none of them are saying our ideas are useless. Bard has to be very careful how it presents this program, because we run the risk of boxing our cynics/detractors/naysayers/doubters into an absurd rhetorical trap. No one is going to say “it’s OK to be a dumb musician.” “Plenty of meatheads win jobs.” That is not really a defensible position. When I meet my counterparts at conservatories, or very famous faculty from other schools, many express admiration for what we’re doing with undergraduate education, but end up shrugging their shoulders and saying something that amounts to “in the end, there’s only so many hours in the day.” </p>
<p>Are there? </p>
<p>This is our agenda, then–to synthesize two contradictory pedagogical paradigms. Why even try? Because we believe music is not a trade, but an art form. It intersects with every facet of our culture–past and present. As Leon Botstein said in an interview, “Music is not a separate art form, detached from life. It is a form of life.” And what if a school existed that took the idea of the well-educated musician seriously enough to ensure that broad exposure to the liberal arts came without sacrificing ANY QUALITY in musical instruction? What if a school existed that said “this shouldn’t be a possibility, or an option, or a nice add-on for those overachiever kids, but should be a requirement for any musician”? And then created a 5-year program catered to exceptionally talented musicians? This is what we’re trying to achieve. </p>
<p>Most double-degree programs came about by student demand. Conservatories were seeing their yields affected, as very gifted musicians declined offers to attend Ivies or top-notch LACs. Why? What did Yo-Yo Ma see in Harvard that he couldn’t find at Curtis? (For me, the ideal Bard student would have been Lenny, who went to Harvard first, then Curtis). Many, many Bard faculty have told me personally that if something like Bard had existed when they were looking at schools, they would have been seriously interested. (People like Jeremy Denk, with a BM/BS from Oberlin, and Eugene Drucker, who just wrote a novel. It didn’t take much to convince them to sign on). </p>
<p>In a short time things will start to pan out for us. The rubber will hit the road, and things will stop being hypothetical and we’ll have to start looking at the results of our endeavors vis a vis professional success in the field. </p>
<p>Hopefully, many of our students will become Major-League players, earning very generous salaries by performing at the top of the profession. We honestly believe that those who do will achieve success because of their liberal arts education–not in spite of it. They will bring a depth of feeling and understanding as artists to the technical execution of notes on a page. (fingers AND brain AND heart). Bard will have stimulated their imaginations and critical faculties, activating their aesthetic and communicative selves. </p>
<p>Those pursuing other avenues–like those I referenced in the LA Times article–will be more confident in acknowledging their multiple identities, instead of feeling like “sellouts” for actually making money doing something other than music. Not trying to start a flame war here, but there might be something to be said for the following (very provocative) essay, which compares grad school to a cult. Could some (SOME, like 10%, again this is grain of salt/tongue-in-cheek) of this apply to the study of music as well? [Chronicle Careers: Is Grad School a Cult?](<a href=“http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2004/06/2004062801c.htm”>http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2004/06/2004062801c.htm</a>)</p>
<p>I speak from some experience. My wife and I have several conservatories and summer programs between us. In high school, I spent my summers at Idyllwild, she went to ENCORE. We both work as musicians–her at a much higher level than me. We have friends who have “made it”–jobs with Nashville, San Francisco, St. Louis, Houston, Puerto Rico, Ft. Worth, etc. And we have lots of friends who are “making it”–jobs with Pacific, Santa Barbara, NY-NJ-CT pickup orchestras, sub with big orchestras, that do web design/teach yoga/work as teaching artists. And we know from our own experiences that there are plenty of people out there whose life experience goes something like this: they discover at age 15 that they’ve got some serious talent. They have other interests, but they’re told “there’s only so many hours in the day” and they must shut those doors or it’ll be over for them. By 17 their hard work pays off-they get in to a top music school. They then spend ten years going from BM to MM to DMA/AD to the “penalty box” (New World Symphony) waiting for a job to open up. Some of them hit 27 and wonder what they have to show for themselves. SOME start to regret not doing a semester abroad, or studying literature, or doing marine biology. They start to wonder whether it was such a good idea to double down on music and only music.</p>
<p>And so for those SOME people, we say it’s not an either/or proposition at age 17. You have options, and you can study music here seriously while you figure out what to do with your life. After 5 years here, you will be able to move forward empowered and hopefully a little Enlightened as well (terrible pun I know).</p>
<p>Whew! I’m getting verbose. Can anyone tell it’s spring break at Bard? </p>
<p>And now, back to pretending to work…</p>
<p>Oh, N8, you almost had me convinced until you hauled out that old canard about Yo-Yo Ma. </p>
<p>Mr. Ma did not have the childhood and/or the musical training similar to that of most of the kids discussed on this board. </p>
<p>[Yo-Yo</a> Ma’s Journeys | Harvard Magazine](<a href=“http://harvardmagazine.com/2000/03/yo-yo-mas-journeys.html]Yo-Yo”>http://harvardmagazine.com/2000/03/yo-yo-mas-journeys.html)</p>
<p>An excerpt from the above referenced Harvard Magazine:
“It was when he was five that Yo-Yo Ma, the archetypal child prodigy, played his first public concert, at the University of Paris. He played both the piano and cello, including the prelude to the second Bach suite for unaccompanied cello.”</p>
<p>My point is that Mr. Ma was a professional level player BEFORE he went to Harvard. He could have gone to Harvard, Bard, nursing school or no school and he would still be the premier cello player of our time. </p>
<p>Some kids need to practice more and, last time I checked, there ARE still only 24 hours in a day. Options are great. Different strokes and all that. Some like a double degree/some like to only pay for 4 (not 5) years of college.</p>
<p>Just keep in mind that not everyone who didn’t attend an expensive LAC is “dumb” or a “meathead.”</p>
<p>Whoops…I meant Yo-Yo Ma in a figurative, not literal sense. Every year talented musicians turn down conservatories to attend strong academic schools. We offer 5 years of instruction in music for people that actually need it. Not just people with management and record contracts. </p>
<p>My other point was that no-one (myself included) is saying graduates of other schools are “dumb,” or advocating that path for musicians. Rather, it’s a question of degree in terms of exposure to the liberal arts.</p>
<p>Hi everyone,</p>
<p>I’ve been asked on and off this forum how things are going here at Bard since the undergraduate program’s inception in 2005, and as promised in an earlier post on this thread (a year ago!), I’m writing with an update on the first graduates of the dual degree program. (We’ve already sent conductors, singers, and collaborative pianists out the door with Bard Conservatory degrees, but at the graduate and postgraduate level).</p>
<p>I’ve heard back from most folks, but not all, regarding their plans, but here’s at least an idea of what Bard Conservatory graduates end up doing. I’ll try and model this on the accepted student thread:</p>
<p>BM violin/BA mathematics---->MM violin: +MSM, Juilliard, NEC, @Rice
BM cello/BA political studies---->MM cello: @NEC (don’t know other schools!)
BM piano/BA political studies---->MM piano: +NEC, Stony Brook, @Juilliard
BM clarinet/BA biology---->PhD neuroscience: +UWash, UCLA, CalTech, UNC Chapel Hill, @Berkeley
BM clarinet/BA biology---->working in a lab this year, applying to marine biology PhD next year
BM flute/BA sociology---->heading up instrumental music at Bard High School Early College in Queens
BM composition/BA German studies---->PhD composition: +Michigan, USC, Northwestern, @Juilliard
BM oboe/BA Asian studies and piano performance---->MM oboe: +NEC, BU, Mannes, @Colburn Conservatory
BM oboe/BA psychology---->MD neurology: +Johns Hopkins, @Washington U St. Louis
BM piano/BA mathematics and computer science---->will work as a vocal coach and musical theater director</p>
<p>Some students who came in the first year were from overseas, and spent one additional year in ESL courses before commencing the academic side of things, and so they will start to graduate next year. </p>
<p>Current undergraduate students are also participating in a wide variety of summer activities: intensive language study, the science research partnership with Rockefeller University, and participation at festivals like Aspen, Tanglewood, Verbier, Yellow Barn, Bowdoin, etc.</p>
<p>Very impressive results for the first class out the door, N8Ma, with several going on to top graduate programs and others securing work at a time when that is even harder than usual. Can you tell us how many students graduated with this class, so that we know what percentage of the whole program these ten represent?</p>
<p>Just noting that I have heard that Yo Yo Ma got C’s at Harvard. Combining studies with music (and he was touring at that time, I believe, perhaps internationally) was apparently a tall order, even for him.</p>
<p>Since N8Ma hasn’t chimed back in - and he should feel to correct me with accurate info - my surmise is that this may be close to the entire graduating class of 2010. My son’s entering class (of 2014 - since it’s a five year program) was only 15 students, I believe. So for 10 students to be listed, and the internationals who needed ESL taking one extra year to graduate - this list would make sense.</p>
<p>Hi BassDad–I got the final tally of students, after hearing back from a few stragglers. I’m counting two folks who graduated early, so that will be reflected in this next listing: </p>
<p>BM violin/BA mathematics '09---->MM violin: +MSM, +Juilliard, +NEC, @Rice
BM cello/BA political studies---->MM cello: @NEC (don’t know other schools!)
BM piano/BA political studies---->MM piano: +NEC, +Stony Brook, @Juilliard
BM piano/BA mathematics and computer science---->will work as a vocal coach and musical theater director (will audition for our Piano Fellowship on May 1)
BM flute/BA sociology '08---->heading up instrumental music at Bard High School Early College in Queens
BM oboe/BA Asian studies and piano performance---->MM oboe: +NEC, +BU, +IU, +Mannes, @Colburn Conservatory
BM oboe/BA psychology---->MD neurology: +Johns Hopkins, @Washington U St. Louis
BM clarinet/BA biology---->PhD neuroscience: +UW, +UCLA, +CalTech, +UNC, @Berkeley
BM clarinet/BA biology---->working in a lab this year, applying to marine biology PhD next year
BM bassoon/BA German studies---->moving to Berkeley with her partner (the PhD neuroscience student), interviewing for a job at a German car company
BM horn/BA political studies---->moving to DC to work at a think tank
BM composition/BA German studies---->PhD composition: +Michigan, +USC, +Northwestern, @Juilliard</p>
<p>In the interest of full disclosure: as mentioned earlier, some of the students in the first intake are graduating next year. They came from overseas and postponed the academics for one year while studying ESL, and three of these overseas students have also left Bard. Of those three, one transferred to NEC, one transferred to Juilliard, and one left for medical reasons. </p>
<p>So that’s a full listing of all of our current and past double degree graduates. A variety of outcomes for the first year, but everyone seems happy (and relieved their senior projects are over with!)</p>
<p>The Yo-Yo Ma thing was a bad move on my part. I just wanted to illustrate the fact that every year, people turn down the top conservatories to attend academically rigorous programs, because they feel those programs will provide a better environment for them to develop as musicians. I chose Mr. Ma because #1 he was a “household name” and thus better for illustrating my point than Charles Pikler, Akiko Tarumoto, Alisa Weilerstein, Jeremy Denk, Ariana Ghez, Dana Hansen, Christopher Taylor, Melvin Chen, Han-na Chang, John Adams, Fredric Rzewski, etc. etc. and #2 he and I share the same Chinese surname, and I played the cello once upon a time, so why not.</p>
<p>You can be successful at both, it’s not always a forced either/or situation. Especially if there’s an institution where such multiple interests are encouraged and supported, as opposed to a “good luck with that” mentality. </p>
<p>Anyway…people ask how things are going here at Bard, so I figured I’d provide this update.</p>