<p>Have any of you applied to or attended their double degree, music plus another degree program? i keep finding more and more programs such as this. It looks good..any opinions..We continue to collect info on programs for DS, now a junior in high school.</p>
<p>bookcases- I don't remember anyone specifically attending Bard on the forum; looking at the Master List of Acceptances from this year here <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=310197&page=16&highlight=master+list%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=310197&page=16&highlight=master+list</a> I see no one listing Bard as an acceptance (or rejection).</p>
<p>That's not to say that you may not get a direct answer, but from I can't recall anyone specifically applying to the Bard program.</p>
<p>The first class started in 2005, so there won't be any alumni yet. There used to be someone on here who went there - wmgan - perhaps you can search on his/her username for info?</p>
<p>I know there was a thread sometime back about the pros and cons of double majors. (We've examined it thoroughly - I have a kid on each side!) Bard's program was discussed there.</p>
<p>While searching for that thread (which I couldn't find), I came across a few other threads discussing how new the Bard program is, and therefore no track record yet. The advantage to a new program is that there might be some money attached, if they are desperate to grow. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I also found a post indicating that Bard was a tough admit, so maybe they are purposely staying small in order to establish a "prestige" rep despite their size. </p>
<p>I also searched for, and couldn't find, an article I'd read which quoted someone from Bard (the President? Dean of Music?) explaining the new program. I remember feeling like he was saying, "We make our music majors major in something else because in all likelihood they will fail at a music career and we want them to have a degree they can use." </p>
<p>So, I'm absolutely no help at all. But as you continue your exploration, please come back and share what you learn!</p>
<p>binx- the link to the pro con double major thread is on one of the the previous links I had posted to bookcases' earlier thread.</p>
<p>I too remember the Dean's letter and could have sworn I read it on Bard's webpages. Now I can't find it on either.</p>
<p>I think the statement you are referring to was made by Leon Botstein, the president of Bard College (who is also a conductor), to the effect that he thinks the next generation of musicians need to be flexible in their careers, and that a double degree program would prepare students to be flexible.
Wmgan was a longtime poster on CC, who, as I recall, is from Malaysia and was recruited to Bard by Melvin Chen (he is one of the administrative heads of the program and teaches piano; he has degrees in piano, violin, and in physical science, from Yale, among other places). You can probably find his posts somewhere on the site. He seemed positive about his experience there at last posting.
We visited Bard last year, as part of a college tour and attended an admissions session. I found it disappointing.</p>
<p>We don't live far from Bard. Two of DD's classmates visited it with the idea of applying there as double majors music/something else. None even applied. While the literature says it's convenient to NYC, the reality is that Bard is in a very remote area, and NOT very convenient to NYC (unless you like longish train rides). Both of DD's friends (and their families) found the campus location and the program disappointing. Having said that, if your student is looking for a rural LAC type program with a very good arts scene, Bard might be a good choice. It's a fairly liberal campus as well.</p>
<p>D has a friend who is in this program. I seem to recall there was a lot of scholarship money involved. D has mentioned that this friend is happy with the second major, but I'm not so sure about the music part.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.chamber-music.org/pdf/magazine/2005/August2005CoverStory.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.chamber-music.org/pdf/magazine/2005/August2005CoverStory.pdf</a> This is a link to an article about the Bard program.</p>
<p>Because this program is so new and doesn't have a track record yet, I think it is important to visit when the school is in session to attend a concert, talk to students, faculty, etc. It might be interesting to find out what the music students are doing during the summer. For example, are they attending top summer programs?</p>
<p>bookcases-</p>
<p>In the event you didn't know, here's a few Bard "reviews" from the College Visits forum <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/visits/bard-college%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/visits/bard-college</a></p>
<p>rcmama - thanks for the link. That was a fascinating article. I have some immediate reactions, but I will mostly allow them to gel for awhile.</p>
<p>rcmama- Thanks for the article link. I've read it before and I'd like to address the Bard concept from the viewpoint of a parent with a recent grad who went the double major route.</p>
<p>My son is a May '07 Hartt BM performance grad who entered as a performance/ed candidate. He decided one semester (12 credits short) short away from both to drop the ed. Hartt as an institution is extremely supportive of music dual majors with 12 separate program options, and in conjunction with other UHartford schools will allow and support a music/non music dual degree; there were 2 in son's graduating class, both performance/science disciplines.</p>
<p>What I found distressing is that as a freshman, my son was one of about 30 candidates across the 12 double major options, yet there were only three who actually graduated in their origininally matriculated program.</p>
<p>My son was highly motivated across both aspects, and he graduated summa cum laude. There are a number of factors that contribute to attrition... finding one's true passion, time management/scheduling issues, potential job prospects, insufficient financial resources, general burn-out. </p>
<p>Maybe I expected a better yield from a highly motivated and talented group of candidates. The wheat and chaff get sifted pretty quickly in any program demanding high standards, but I found the success rate pretty low in general.</p>
<p>While it may be a noble effort on the part of Bard to mandate a dual discipline program, I wonder how the actual yields will shake out. There will always be those uber achievers that will succeed no matter what the program, but from my experience and from looking into success (graduation) rates involving performance and other disciplines (including music related), I wonder if the Bard concept will work.</p>
<p>The program is still new, and there are a number of faculty that are very well known and respected. As a four year conservatory, I'm positive that Bard will be a force to contend with within 5 to 10 years.</p>
<p>I do wonder however if they can sustain a program based on a requirement that imposes an often unattainable goal even for the most motivated and talented student.</p>
<p>Just my $.02. I hope they prove me wrong.</p>
<p>Bard is such a new program that it's difficult for me to find reasons to recommend it. I participated in a summer program at Bard in 2006, and visited again this year (during which I was able to see the Conservatory's building), and my impression of the place has not been altogether positive. The program I attended (the Conductor's Institute) was a collosal waste of time, and it didn't seem like the school really had much of a conservatory. It seemed to me that the only reasons to go to Bard are if you really want to double-major and are more interested in your non-music degree, or if you want to study with a particular teacher.
I have a friend who is a graduate voice student at Bard, and has had a very good time there while studying with Dawn Upshaw. She says that the graduate voice program is incredible, with frequent master classes and lots of singing for the very small voice class. However, I get the impression that that isn't what instrumentalists and undergrads experience. It is also imprortant to remember that very few - if any - of the applied music faculty live near Bard. Almost all commute from New York City or Boston.
Although Bard is in a very pretty part of New York, it is extremely isolated. Any claim that it is close to New York City is an outright lie.
I can understand why some would think that it will become a major music school within 10-15 years. Bard has the benefit of a large endowment, so it has the ability to attract big name teachers. It also has Leon Bottstein who is a very smart man, even if he is highly opinionated (musically) and not very pleasant. However, I have a hard time imagining a top-tier music program developing in a place that is so isolated. Music students need to have outlets to hear music performed by others and to get gigs while they are working on their degrees. Neither is really possible at Bard. Even Oberlin, which is the most isolated major music school I can think of, is reasonably close to Cleveland.</p>
<p>MahlerSnob-</p>
<p>Very cogent and informative. </p>
<p>The only performance opportunities from a viewing standpoint that I'm aware of are the Hudson Valley Symphony in Poughkeepsie <a href="http://www.bardavon.org/preview_0708/hvp_preview_0708.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.bardavon.org/preview_0708/hvp_preview_0708.htm</a>, and the Rhinebeck Chamber Music Society in Rhinebeck <a href="http://www.rhinebeckmusic.org/directions/dset.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.rhinebeckmusic.org/directions/dset.html</a>. Without researching, I don't know if either is serviced by the train that runs through the area.</p>
<p>As for distance to NYC, 2 hours is a good estimate, but can very widely depending on traffic conditions closer to the metro area for those traveling by car.</p>
<p>I have one question, regarding the Conductor's Institute. My son, '07 Hartt graduate, thought about applying last year as an orchestral player but took advantage of a couple of festival fellowships instead. In general, your opinion of the Institute's orchestra from your experience would be appreciated.</p>
<p>Bard has Peter Serkin on the piano faculty, which is pretty impressive. I doubt he is resident though (but then again, lots and lots of music professors are not residential, and this is true at Oberlin, Eastman and Peabody and others...or maybe we just hit the jackpot on that one!)</p>
<p>Bard has had some terrific guest artists too.</p>
<p>But I have also heard a lot of what has been brought up on this thread as negatives.</p>
<p>Bard does not have a particularly large endowment, as the facilities show. The list of faculty, while very impressive, seemed misleading to me when I actually visited; no sign of them in the music building, which is also where the faculty for the college music program are located and the practice rooms for both programs (a paltry number, in a basement area; they were mostly empty -- this was during the school year, while it was in session). Indeed, I saw almost nobody around apart from Melvin Chen and Robert Martin, the two heads of the program, though there was a sign up about a master class with Richard Goode. The admissions director said they had 5 students in the piano program; when I asked why there were only 5 students for same number of faculty, he replied: "The faculty have lives" -- meaning they aren't there all the time.<br>
Oberlin has about 40 double degree students matriculate each year; of those, apparently about 50% remain in both programs, which is a 5 year program. That's quite a large number. Many other double degree programs, like the ones at Peabody/JHU, begin with only a handful of students, which might make it more difficult to finish.</p>
<p>Comment about the teachers: At Juilliard, most of the instrument teachers are studio only. They don't teach other classes, don't work there full time, and usually have several other jobs. My son's horn teacher, Jerome Ashby, is assoc.-principal of the NY Phil, and on the faculty at Manhattan and Curtis as well as Juilliard. </p>
<p>Conversely, at Miami-Ohio, my D's theory/sight-singing teacher is also the French Horn teacher. I don't know that her private teacher teaches any classes, but his job seems to be full-time as well. I don't know enough yet to say for certain.</p>
<p>I'm thinking that conservatories generally lean toward adjunct teachers in order to get outstanding performers as their studio teachers, and I'm not sure I'd take that as a negative.</p>
<p>Large state universities with comprehensive music schools have enough majors in almost every discipline for 1+ full time applied music teachers. They are screened and hired by the faculty members in their areas, i.e. voice faculty by voice teachers, piano by piano teachers, but French horn by brass teachers, cello teacher by string faculty. Music history and music theory faculties are usually separate entities within the school. Conductors are screened by constituencies, i.e. choral teacher would be vetted by voice faculty, conducting faculty, probably music education faculty. </p>
<p>Most conservatories are in metropolitan areas where there are professional symphony orchestras, which serve as combined opportunites for faculty and performance; voice teachers may be still in their own performance career years or not, and their loads reflect that need for flexibility. Voice teachers are unique in that singers definitely reach an age when they are not likely to be performing, or if they are it is in character roles or strictly recital work. Dancers have an even shorter professional shelf-life. </p>
<p>In NYC conservatories, almost every applied music teacher is part-time/adjunct, and many have other gigs, playing in symphonies, and/or teaching at several different schools and/or maintaining private studio. At some schools, they have to maintain a certain number of students in order to get (health and retirement) benefits. Teachers are put on rosters, and then students who are accepted by the whole faculty chose with whom they want to study, usually as part of a ranking process before their audition. After the student is admitted, if the first requested teacher is not available, or if the student has not ranked the teachers, in the best situations the dean will contact the student and help negotiate a choice in a studio which has room...the teachers are not involved in the process, and this is good and appropriate, keeps politics out of grading and other kinds of decisions. Some places the student is told he or she must contact the requested teacher to see if there is room, and the faculty member can then chose which students they prefer from those requests....this is NOT a good process, too many problems arise.</p>
<p>The teacher selection at Juilliard is "similar but different." During application, students are asked to indicate a first and second choice. At audition, teachers are asked to indicate on their judging form (or something) whether or not they would be willing to have a particular student in their studio. If the student is accepted, the two lists are compared - by the admissions department. The teachers and students are not aware of who picked whom; only that both were agreeable to the choice. Occassionally a student gets a teacher he did not select - due to the selected teaching already having a full studio or because the teacher didn't see himself as a fit with the student for some reason. But the students are made aware of what studio they've been assigned to at the time of acceptance, and they can decide if they are willing to study with that teacher or not.</p>
<p>Students can also change studios while at Juilliard, if agreeable to all.</p>
<p>From what I've been told by other music teachers, Juilliard's process is not all that blind; that seemed to be borne out at the audition, too. Perhaps it varies by department.</p>
<p>The audition process at Juilliard is not at all blind. The judges watch, listen, and talk to the applicant. I'm not sure what you mean.</p>
<p>In terms of what I wrote about teacher/student studios; obviously, if a student has been in contact with a teacher ahead of time, it is certainly possible that one or the other knows they will be choosing/accepting the other - assuming they share that info. Let me qualify as well that I only know my S's experience, and anecdotally, his friends. That includes folks who got their first choice, and those who got neither choice.</p>
<p>My S did not have any trial lesson there, and did not meet either of the teachers he requested prior to the audition. (He was assigned his first choice.) He chose them by reputation alone. Juilliard did not request any references beyond his English teacher, and that is all he sent. They had his resume and talked with him at his audition. If he had any kind of edge apart from his application and audition, it was accidental - or out of my S's control - in nature. If the teachers contacted any of his former teachers, for example, we are unaware of it.</p>
<p>Obviously, I have no first-hand knowledge of other departments or majors.</p>
<p>"I have one question, regarding the Conductor's Institute. My son, '07 Hartt graduate, thought about applying last year as an orchestral player but took advantage of a couple of festival fellowships instead. In general, your opinion of the Institute's orchestra from your experience would be appreciated."</p>
<p>The orchestra at the Conductor's Institute is kind of a strange group. It's a rough mix of college students from various schools (many from SUNY's), local professionals, amateur players, and conducting students who play when they are not on the podium. The quality of the playing is decent: probably about the level of a mid-level conservatory orchestra, but far from the Vienna Philharmonic. That said, it's a pretty good gig. Room (and possible board) are provided, and my understanding was that the pay is pretty good. The real downside is the music. While Farberman always chooses good rep for the summer, there are approximately 40 conductors and the amount they cover in a given week is rather small, so you end up playing the same pieces or sections of pieces over and over again. This is fine when it's a Strauss tone poem or a Mahler symphony, but when it's Mendelssohn 4, which we did last summer, it gets excruciatingly boring very quickly.
The only major problem I had with the Conductor's Institute was Farberman himself, who looks something like Colonel Sanders but acts more like Musolini. His approach to conducting is very good for certain kinds of music (the kind he writes, for example) but is not very useful in just about anything else. Nevertheless, he forces everyone to use his technique in every piece conducted at the Conductor's Institute. It is a program I would recommend only to those who are either very new to conducting or who have serious flaws in their technique.</p>