<p>If you implimented this system of projects, how would you know who actually did them? Trap all the students in a room? This would perhaps be a good supplement and I admit perhaps one day in ideal conditions a partial replacement, but I just don't see how cheating would be avoided. </p>
<p>
[Quote]
Spetsnaz Op: 1) its not accurate predictor of intelligence b/c it is standardized. and 2) colleges know Exeter. They keep profiles of who applied from your school, and have a pretty good idea of what your school is like. That's why they accept tons of Exeter students each year (the Ivies) who are not necessarily the top in their class, but reject lots of public high school valedictorians. Colleges look at you within your high school situation, and see how well you excelled under the conditions you were given. SAT is really not needed because they have that information.</p>
<p>"I have the personal experience to tell you that the SAT is NOTHING like college exams. I've taken 4 of them at Cal Poly Pomona, and those...er...were no different from high school exams, except a little longer <em>sigh</em>" Yes. And especially true for elite colleges, like Harvey Mudd. APs and SATs are really really mutated versions of 'college tests'.</p>
<p>"I can foresee an argument against this: "Economically disadvantaged students can't do research projects." Yet they're supposed to pay for prep classes and fund ECs? Research projects don't necessarily require money...they just take time and effort"</p>
<p>actually my argument would be that you'd have to account not only for science research projects but humanities things like essays. which are more subjective.
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>Also, I go to a small private school in the midwest. Harvard doesn't have my school on file most likely...a universal means of testing like the SAT is invaluable in comparing students from incomparable backrounds. Say you have an urban kids living in a broken family condition. He/She takes the SAT and gets a perfect score and teacher recs support him/her and point out that he or she would most likely succeed in a college setting away from parents. Without the SAT, the institution would not have had much to go on, but with it they can feel more comfortable giving finantial aid. The test is invaluable.</p>
<p>and yet I'm not too fond of the SAT...should tell you something :)
it just means I test well...nothing else...</p>
<p>spets, i dont really think the test is invaluable.</p>
<p>special cases. the thing is, are you poor? are you from a socio-economically advantaged family/part of the country? You may not have been, and just not spent the money on SAT to get your 1600. The whole thing is that if you grew up in LA ghetto or something, you wouldn't have the high school preparation/just the intelligence that develops as you take harder and harder hs classes (or just classes in general) because your hs was really bad. You wouldn't really be able to just look through a prep book to do it b/c you wouldn't have that solid academic foundation. </p>
<p>and tanonev - and how much load would that put on college professors? With the amount of applications, it'd be horrible. Plus, most college professors, esp. for humanities, don't even read their students essays. Its all GSAs and GSIs. They don't even read college essays; why would they read hs ones?</p>
<p>Hey, I come from a small private school that offers...5...AP courses. Our average SAT score is...900? Harvard couldn't possibly have known we even existed before this year, when two of us applied...neither of us got in, by the way, even with the help of the SAT</p>
<p>
[Quote]
spets, i dont really think the test is invaluable.
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>I really don't think this post is valuable without reasons to back it up. Ebonytear's posts are far more enjoyable and polite</p>
<p>Also ebonytear - good point about the uneducated LA kid, but the bottom line is that Harvard is not in the business of educating these people (sad as it sounds).</p>
<p>agree with ebonytear. Im sure ppl can literally BS their college Apps if they have a low SAT score and still get away with it</p>
<p>How is it invaluable? Dont you think its needed for college? I mean i agree in the sense that its valuable to a certain extent, but not to the extreme of invaluable. Thats why i think its over-rated.</p>
<p>"The whole thing is that if you grew up in LA ghetto or something, you wouldn't have the high school preparation/just the intelligence that develops as you take harder and harder hs classes (or just classes in general) because your hs was really bad. You wouldn't really be able to just look through a prep book to do it b/c you wouldn't have that solid academic foundation."</p>
<p>My "solid academic foundation" consisted of self-study...Alg II 7th grade, Precalc 8th grade (cost me a little in the long run...)...but now I'm just going on an ego trip :P</p>
<p>I don't mean that the project thing should be used for all colleges...it's just a suggestion for some of the ones that have trouble filtering out their applicant pool...</p>
<p>"If you implimented this system of projects, how would you know who actually did them? Trap all the students in a room? This would perhaps be a good supplement and I admit perhaps one day in ideal conditions a partial replacement, but I just don't see how cheating would be avoided."</p>
<p>Well, for the schools that have mandatory interviews that are, oh, 30 min long, why not devote 5-10 min to making the student present their research project?</p>
<p>"Also, I go to a small private school in the midwest. Harvard doesn't have my school on file most likely...a universal means of testing like the SAT is invaluable in comparing students from incomparable backrounds." I went to a small private school that is virtually unknown. They still accepted (as in Harvard and MIT) students from my school - because of EC involvement and such. There are other ways of distinguishing yourself - and someone has to set the agenda/standard for that school. Essays also play a major factor, as well as teacher recs. SAT perfect score no longer really means anything at the ivies - they reject a ton of them each year. They recognize it is not an accurate predictor of intelligence! No one has answered that argument.</p>
<p>"institution would not have had much to go on, but with it they can feel more comfortable giving finantial aid." what does financial aid have to do with SAT? Yeah, because they can write amazing essays, good recs, and participate in state or national ECs. </p>
<p>"how would you know who actually did them?" contract of integrity? its not really different from SAT. how do u know who actually took the test? the person or the PR person who helped the person? besides, they'd get kicked out of the school once they wrote a completely diff. paper or got kicked for plagarism. I hope no one is stupid enough to cheat like that.</p>
<p>"My "solid academic foundation" consisted of self-study...Alg II 7th grade, Precalc 8th grade (cost me a little in the long run...)...but now I'm just going on an ego trip :P" and if you're smart, that's more valuable than sitting through disruptive, really not profitable classes at really bad high schools. i even think self-study, when motivated, is better than public school, period because it is self-motivated and you really have more control over what you learn.</p>
<p>
[Quote]
How is it invaluable? Dont you think its needed for college? I mean i agree in the sense that its valuable to a certain extent, but not to the extreme of invaluable. Thats why i think its over-rated.
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>I think that in situations stated in my post above it is invaluable. If we lived in a homogeneous society with everyone going to the same types of schools with the same grade curves, then they would not be AS necessary. Personally if I am an adcom I would not want to compare GPA across the board in this country. Canada is different because there is more structure, the test is not needed. You cannot compare GPA like that in the US, schools differ far too much. Ebony, you know well enough that people are stupid enough to cheat and SMART enough to get away with it. They will cheat on these projects just like they cheat on SAT's or bring in Ti 89's on ACT's. I really have no choice to laugh at this contract of integrity idea, come on ;). Also self study to me shows maturity, I have self study french and really have to push myself to get stuff done. It's different, and I don't think I would want to do it for a core course like calc.</p>
<p>Of COURSE it's not an accurate predictor of intelligence! NO SINGLE THING can be an accurate predictor of intelligence! It's just a tool to help people guess where you belong.</p>
<p>A perfect SAT score means alot! I mean anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have a perfect SAT score, good grades, recs, essays and EC's, SAT IIs im sure you can get into a top notch college</p>
<p>point well taken spets</p>
<p>maybe im being too extreme on SAT. I mean it doesnt even stand for anything anymore right?</p>
<p>"Also ebonytear - good point about the uneducated LA kid, but the bottom line is that Harvard is not in the business of educating these people (sad as it sounds)." and yet, that is the biggest flaw in our society. do you know how much cr** they get for that? less than 3% of people at ivies are from socio-economically disadvantaged areas - and they are looking to diversify not only racially but economically. That's why Yale, Harvard, etc. increased their finaid packages greatly this year. And so they are. Just cuz they're poor doesn't mean they don't have potential - that's why Harvard doesn't have merit scholarships, so they can give low-income students full rides. And that's why Yale got rid of ED, because less low-income students were applying. This means colleges want to get these kind of students - but they are unfortunately hindered by such 'standardized tests'. And they should be in the business of educating these people, that's the entire purpose of equality/a democracy/etc. And they are taking steps to do that. They get lots of grants for diversification (wonder why they like those diversity/ethnic clubs so much?) and if you look at the wealthiest people in the US - most of them did not inherit their wealth (even if they did, trace back to where that money DID come from, and it came from people who made their own fortunes from poverty - Carnegie, Rockefeller, Walton, etc.)</p>
<p>Thanks thrill, I am not trying to make any enemies in here. I need you guys to help me decide where to apply next year :D</p>
<p>Also ebony, when I said that I had ment that Harvard is not in the business of educating kids who did not get the chance to learn Algebra I or II or Geometry effectively due to poor conditions. (although your post is still insightful)</p>
<p>Spets, you know very well that GPA counts for very little in the college app nowadays...(actually, what counts for the most now? I heard the essay is being devalued because they're being professionally written way too often...)</p>
<p>""institution would not have had much to go on, but with it they can feel more comfortable giving finantial aid." what does financial aid have to do with SAT? Yeah, because they can write amazing essays, good recs, and participate in state or national ECs."</p>
<p>To be honest, I've never met a person with high SAT scores and NOTHING else.</p>
<p>thrills4ever. there is no formula. valedictorian of awesome high school, best in my county, got rejected from harvard with those exact scores. whereas a B student got accepted to Stanford. Harvard rejects like 50% of valedictorians or like 70% of 1600s. (I think? something big)</p>
<p>Personally if I am an adcom I would not want to compare GPA across the board in this country. Canada is different because there is more structure, the test is not needed. </p>
<p>---> that's why Law Schools don't do that. However, once again, most colleges do have experience with most high schools. </p>
<p>Ebony, you know well enough that people are stupid enough to cheat and SMART enough to get away with it. </p>
<p>---> yes, but it hurts when they don't, doesn't it? there were like 5 students who were just about to graduate from harvard and got expelled. i'm sure if you cheated on the project, you'd have to cheat on all subsequent essays (unless u magically became Faulkner or something) and you'd inevitably (esp. if you had in class essays) do something out of tone with previous work - and you are thereby blacklisted from academia. </p>
<p>They will cheat on these projects just like they cheat on SAT's or bring in Ti 89's on ACT's. I really have no choice to laugh at this contract of integrity idea - well, even so, its really no different from getting coaching on SAT than getting coaching on the essay.</p>
<p>tanonev: GPA for little? REally??? I thought that having a better secondary report shows strong academic achievment. Do u mean that there are differences between GPA across the country? If thats the case, isnt that why CB gives the SAT</p>