<p>people should realize because the website doesn't make it clear, this is NOT a nationally accredited university</p>
<p>once again, i apologize, but i just had to do it for the humanitarian people that don't know about the school...you gotta forgive me.</p>
<p>quite alright, i just wanted to point it out</p>
<p>Wow, a LOT of people are listing Dartmouth as overrated...I'm going to have to agree with Xanatos--it's undergraduate education is completely underrated.
I guess I'll start off by answering this one:</p>
<p>If a student wants to get out and try out a profession, or research a particular field deeper, they would be better off doing so at Princeton than Dartmouth. That is not meant to detract from the stellar learning climate of the in-class education, but its truth </p>
<p>Because of the D-plan, Dartmouth actually trumphs other schools in its ability to let students "get out and try a profession." While other students have to clamor to compete for summer internships, the flexible quarter system lets Dartmouth students intern any season of the year, and so pre-med students have little/no competition to get top research internships. There are also a myriad of research opportunities on campus, which you can read about more here <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Edof/undergrad/index.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dof/undergrad/index.html</a>. The pre-med courses are all "weeder" courses, meaning they are extremely, extremely rigorous so that non-committed pre-meds are weeded out and encouraged to pursue other majors. Dartmouth students are accepted at such high percentages to the med schools of their choice for a reason--because the pre-med program here is stellar. </p>
<p>Dartmouth has the best of both worlds: it resembles an LAC in its undergraduate emphasis and close-knit student body, yet offers the research opportunities of an Ivy League university. The professors (who deserve to be called professors, and not teachers) are amazing, and extremely accessible. (I've been to dinner at a prof's house, had another take the entire class out to lunch, etc.) The foreign languages program is the best in the country bar none (I will gladly argue that point with anyone), and I don't think anyone who knows anything about the school would attack its humanities/social sciences programs. And the environment is laid-back and friendly, not cut-throat like some Ivy schools. Yet many people haven't heard of it, and many who have like to dump on it (as shown in this thread). I don't mind when people haven't heard of it, because it means less of the prestige whores apply, but it's overall undergraduate education is--whether recognized as such or not--one of the best in the country. </p>
<p>It's true that we don't have the nobel-prize winning profs that are on some of the payrolls at top colleges. But I'd be surprised if Toni Morrison took her students at Harvard out to lunch, learned all of their names, or even taught the majority of her classes. At Dartmouth 100% of classes are taught by the professors--no TAs. </p>
<p>I guess it really depends what you are looking for in a school, and Dartmouth certainly isn't perfect for everyone. But to the people who called Dartmouth overrated--could you elaborate on why you think so? I don't want to battle with anyone over this, and everyone is welcome to their own opinions (if they can substantiate them). I'm just puzzled by why so many people give us a bad rap...</p>
<p>Yeah people on this forum all claim that we are overrated, then people come to the Dartmouth forum and claim that we aren't prestigious enough and we'd better get some more graduate and professional schools pronto or else we're going to suck and we already have terrible everything. So which is it people? Make up your minds damnit.</p>
<p>And I also agree with everything that Kelsey08 just said.</p>
<p>I said that Dartmouth was overrated so I think you deserve a good explanation as to why I personally added it to my list. Keep in mind that everyone has their individual opinions as to why they feel the way they do. In my case, I was comparing Dartmouth to other schools in the US News top 50 (take a look at my post on page 6 for further clarification). Before I begin, I should say that in no way does my saying that Dartmouth is overrated in any way imply that I think it is just a good school. On the contrary! I think Dartmouth is a great school. It is an elite school that I would be terribly proud of to have attended. In my mind though, I think that its US News ranking of number 9 is too high. My justification for labeling it overrated has to do with a number of measures. </p>
<ol>
<li>Dartmouth does not have a lot of strength in its professional schools. With the exception of Business, Dartmouth does not have any very strong professional schools that warrant its #9 ranking.</li>
<li>Strength of its individual academic departments. Dartmouth is not particularly good in any individual department according to US News and the National Research Council. </li>
<li>In most rankings outside of US News, Dartmouth is nowhere near the number 9 position it currently enjoys. In fact, it is not even close. </li>
</ol>
<p>Now, Im sure that some people may point out that Dartmouth is good at undergraduate education but nothing else. Thats fine but undergraduate education is but a single fraction of a schools greatness. Every major university has an undergraduate program as well that people can argue that is better than Dartmouths. You and him will go back and forth as to why one undergraduate experience is better than the other. Unfortunately, what is good for him may not be good for you. Different personalities call for different undergraduate educational types. I always say that undergraduate education has at least as much to do with fit as any other variable one can think of. For example, you may like visiting a professors family and getting some face time whereas I may prefer to use that time to study the material. Or, perhaps you may like the fact that you can visit the professor at any time during the night while I may take comfort in knowing that I have access to tutors, TAs, the professors, and counselors. Maybe you flourish in an environment where you can get information repeated to you over and over where I may learn better knowing that no one is going to help me if I do not help myself. I can think of many different examples but since you go to Dartmouth you should be smart enough to get my point without further elaboration. All I am saying is that your opinion (or anyone elses) of what an undergraduate education should be like is not enough to warrant an extremely high ranking in a reputable magazine that everyone seems to equate to the Bible. </p>
<p>Ok, I could have taken the wimpy way out and not responded or waited until you personally called me out to respond. I dont think you deserve that though. I never said that Dartmouth was good. I wholeheartedly believe it is among the worlds elite institutions of higher learning. Just by attending Dartmouth you are signaling to the world that you were a good high school student and was able to procure your spot in an incredible educational institution. The reason I believe Dartmouth is overrated is because I think there are schools that are unduly pushed down the list because of Dartmouths inflated rating.</p>
<p>I can accept (most) of that, even if I don't agree. And I appreciate that you responded at all, and appreciate more than you responded in a mature way. There are certainly a lot of amazing schools out there, and many of them probably deserve to be ranked higher. I also agree that it's all about fit, and there are many who prefer larger universities. For one, my older sister, who is transferring from St. John's College in NM after two years to a UC. </p>
<p>That said, I had to laugh when I read your "Maybe you flourish in an environment where you can get information repeated to you over and over" bit. With the fast-paced 10-week quarter system, it's more like, "you have to read 5 million pages by Thursday because the midterm is next week." Lol, the tight-knit atmosphere doesn't mean that you still don't have to study the material and do things on your own. You just have more resources that are tailored to meet your needs. </p>
<p>Anyway, I do think Dartmouth deserves to be put at #9, for all the reasons I mentioned before. It's a unique, enduring institution and deserves its reputation for excellence. We don't have as much of a focus on the grad programs (a plus, IMO), and I think US News is compensating for the fact that we're kind of in between a college and a university. As a college, we're tops. And two out of the three grad schools we do have (business and med) are both in the top ten--I think Tuck is #3 for business schools, and the med program is #6 for med schools, but I'd have to check. And I'd like the link to the rankings that say Dartmouth has no excellent individual departments...I really don't agree with that. Do you know how they do the rankings for those? </p>
<p>But I absoluteley agree that it's all about fit, and when it's all said and done the US News rankings amount to a hill of beans. Even though most Dmouth students are unwaveringly loyal and will defend their school to the death, there are a few who don't feel that way--I do know a guy who is transferring from Dartmouth to U Michigan at Ann Arbor. (A rare instance, but still, it's another underrated school and will probably be a better fit for him).</p>
<p>Out of curiosity, are you in college or still applying? If you're still applying, good luck in your search and selection! I'm sure you'll find a school that's a great fit for you. </p>
<p>Just a note: When I said Dartmouth was underrated before, I didn't mean in terms of the US rankings. I meant in terms of public opinion, especially opinions of students applying to colleges.</p>
<p>The Dartmouth plan has its advantages and disadvantages. It was started when the school went coed in the 70's. There simply wasn't enough room on campus, so having one required summer semester made more room available to accomodate the increased student enrollment and spread the student population out a bit. And while this leaves lots of opportunities for internships and the like, and allows students to meet an increased number of students throughout their educational career, I have also heard other students say that they dont like the fact that their friends are on different academic schedules, and housing/dorm plans get jockeyed each semester as students come and go. I have heard students say they wished they had the continuity that other schools had, with the same semester plans all four years. Again-- it can provide great opportunities, but also has its downside. Don't get me wrong, I think Dartmouth is a great school, and I think it belongs in the top 20 (I am considering the top 20 as the top tier, regardless of the specific order of each school-- I consider that a bit of hair-splitting at times, so look at the top 20 as one group-- don't jump all over me-- I am just putting the schools in one category the way cc does), and how can you get onto (gripe about) a school that lets you bring your dog to class? :)</p>
<p>abrandel, I disagree with your rating, but it is obviously your opinion and you are entitled to it. Persionally, I believe that Michigan has every right to be in the top 10. It is ranked higher than most of your top 10 schools in most departments, it has a similar commitment to undergraduate education as your top 10 schools and it has equal resources to most of your top 10 schools. </p>
<p>Furthermore, academe ranks Michigan among the top 10 universities in the nation and corporate recruiters rank Michigan #6 in the nation according to several studies. </p>
<p>I personally love Georgetown. My father and my sister are alums and I attended Georgetown prep. But to rank Georgetown in the top 10 is not that accurate. Georgetown has an amazing International Relations program, a great SFS and is very effective at placing students into top Law schools. It also has a decent Business school. However, Georgetown is too limited in most ways to make it into a top 10 list.</p>
<p>As an aside, with over 2000 colleges and universities in the US, does it really matter where in the top 1% a school falls?? The exact ranking may shift with the different variables that are being measured in different surveys, and statistically, using standard error of measurement, a score will not be exactly the same each time you measure it. So, all in all, it really shouldn't matter, other than to pride, whether a school is #9 or #18. People complain about the USNews rating, but then rely heavily upon it if it supports their argument. There are many different surveys, but the same group of schools seem to consitently rise to the top, and are, literally and figuratively, the cream of the crop. These top 1% are all great schools. Just my $0.02</p>
<p>JYM, I agree with you 100%, that is why I prefer to "group" rather than rank. But that's just me.</p>
<p>thats actually a good idea...a group rank seems to be a logical way to do things. I apologize for having not responded earlier, im on vacation :-). I will state again, i did the list in 5 minutes to insight conversation, i didn't spend any great amount of time working on it, so i don't intend for it to be a perfect list and i apologize if i offended anyone. If you want to discuss with me more on specifics, my AIM is AOBSynapse, its just easier for me then on the board discussing with multiple people at once, and since my time is limited.</p>
<p>Back to JYM's idea. I do agree with a group ranking, so what would your suggestions for a) how many members to a group and b) what would be your initial layout, given the top i dunno 35 universities and 10-15 colleges?</p>
<p>I personally would do:
1) Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, MIT
2) Duke, CalTech, Northwestern, UPenn, Dartmouth, Columbia
3) Hopkins, Cornell, Berkley, Chicago, Rice
4) WUSTL, Emory, CMU, Notre Dame, Ann Arbor, Virginia, GTown
5) UIUC, Tufts, Wake Forest, Rochester, BC, NYU, William & Mary
6) UCLA, Case, Madison, UCSD, Lehigh</p>
<p>Kelsey08, When I said "Maybe you flourish in an environment where you can get information repeated to you over and over," the keyword was maybe. I have no idea what type of environment you prefer. I was just using an example to explain what I meant by fit.</p>
<p>And I'd like the link to the rankings that say Dartmouth has no excellent individual departments...I really don't agree with that. Do you know how they do the rankings for those?</p>
<p>I was referring to the NRC and US News departmental rankings. I also said that Dartmouth has a good business program. I didnt mention its medical program because, as far as I understand, there are at least 20 other schools that are considered better. </p>
<p>Just a note: When I said Dartmouth was underrated before, I didn't mean in terms of the US rankings. I meant in terms of public opinion, especially opinions of students applying to colleges.</p>
<p>I was talking about US News rankings. Please see my post on page 6 for clarification. As far as public opinion goes, I think it all depends on where you live. Dartmouth is pretty darn good as far as the general public is concerned. It is especially respected in the North East.</p>
<p>I noticed you are originally from California. Do you live by the prisons? Are you coming home after college? Keep representing the Big Bad Wild Wild West Coast over there! Im from Los Angelesborn, raised, and educated (UCLA and USC). You cant get more West Coast than that. That may explain why I am a little bit biased even though I try not to be. Good luck at Dartmouth, its an excellent school.</p>
<p>While the overrated/underrated argument rages, people are attending what most of you would consider TTTs and achieving success that most top 20 folks can only dream of. Keep things in perspective.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.williegary.com/wgary.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.williegary.com/wgary.html</a>
<a href="http://www.williegary.com/%5B/url%5D">http://www.williegary.com/</a></p>
<p>Sometimes it snows in April.</p>
<p>OMG, you mean my school name doesn't automatically make me 10% better than someone else?</p>
<p>I like these group rankings better, because I agree that it is splitting hairs once you get into the top twenty. And Shyboy, when you said "no excellent individual departments" I thought you were referring to undergraduate programs, not grad programs, so we misunderstood. </p>
<p>Jym626--I agree that the D-plan can be a little difficult, especially for people in long-term relationships. But generally the pros outweigh the cons. </p>
<p>Shyboy, It's funny you should mention Folsom Prison; if anyone has heard of my town it's always because of the Johnny Cash song "Folsom Prison Blues." So yeah, I guess I'm relatively close to the prison...it's on the outskirts of town. 99% of my hs friends go to school in CA (I'm also born and raised--eighth generation!); I just personally like the whole "switching coasts for college" philosophy. I wanted to try something new. Heh, but odds are I'll be back in four years.</p>
<p>kelsey08, yeah I think going away for college is a good pretty good idea too. I can see how being away can help someone grow as a person. For financial reasons I could not go away for school. Luckily for me I had two very good schools close by so that I didnt have to move away. Imagine if I were to have been raised in Nevada or something? I'd have been skrewed! Maybe I'll be rich enough so that my kids (well, maybe my grandkids) can experience going away for college. </p>
<p>Dont they hate us West Coasters over there? Are they really as jealous as the stories I have heard? ;)</p>