Parent suddenly not onboard with ED agreement?

[OHMomof2]

<p>I’d leave the ED app in. </p>

<p>I assume OP is also applying to other schools, including Kenyon (or not), and will withdraw those applications in the unlikely event he is accepted to Columbia ED and the package makes it affordable.</p>

<p>What I would NOT do is ONLY apply ED to Columbia and wait for word on that before applying elsewhere. Other apps should be in process now so they can be in before merit scholarship deadlines.</p>

<p>And of course, have a financial and academic safety.</p>

<p>PS: I grew up steps from Columbia campus and now live 30 minutes from Kenyon. I assume you know the settings are like night and day…one in the midst of the most populous city in the country and the other in a town that is about the same size as the (tiny) college. Both terrific schools but really different.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

[nysmile]

<p>In order to solve your current problem, all you have to do is call the admission’s office at Columbia and make the request to change your application to RD. This will allow you and your family to compare financial aid packages of all accepted schools before making the final decision on which college to attend.</p>

<p>Make the phone call ASAP.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@OrangeD00D

my mom seems so set on me getting a scholarship at Kenyon or other schools (but particularly Kenyon), that I should wait out Columbia until I hear from Kenyon (conservatively, it’d be at least three months between the two) or other schools.

</p>

<p>If you are admitted to Columbia ED, then waiting out is not an option – you must decide on Columbia quickly, without knowing what Kenyon or other schools will offer. If this is a problem for either you or your parents, then change your Columbia application to RD.</p>

[intparent]

<p>I am sure Kenyon admissions would be thilled to know that their little postcard mailing on this is generating such buzz. We have the same postcard sitting on the counter… and it does make a <em>kaching</em> sound every time I look at it. Now, D2 has had Kenyon on her list all along, visited, and even named it one of her top 2 schools in her NMSF “school choice” they do way back at the beginning of the NMF process. I sort of get that buzz the OP’s mom gets when they think about it… And I also am sympathetic to the OP’s “mixed messages” issue with his divorced parents (ex-H pretty much stays out of the college stuff, fortunately, but I could see how this sort of situation could happen!).</p>

<p>OP, I don’t think you have said what your major and career plans are… can you even fulfill them via Kenyon?</p>

[2016BarnardMom]

<p>I also take issue with criticizing this young man’s mom for saying “we’ll figure it out”. As a single mom, sometimes that is the answer. There are some schools, including Barnard, that I told my daughter “I will figure out how to make it happen if you get in” because I think they are worth whatever I have to do to make sure it would happen for her. I had ideas about my options and sacrifices, but really didn’t want her to NOT go there because of the sacrifices I would have to make. What she doesn’t know won’t hurt her. We’ll get her through Barnard because it was her dream and the best fit for her.</p>

[vonlost]

<p>Is there a consensus that applying ED to Columbia provides an admission advantage? (There’s no Common Data Set giving a definitive answer.) If yes, leave it ED. If no, is there an advantage in leaving it ED in this case, instead of changing to RD?</p>

[Axelrod]

<p>vonlost: The issue arose because OP is going to apply RD to Kenyon in hope of receiving a substantial scholarship. OP’s original post feared being accepted to Columbia & then being required to withdraw his Kenyon application before knowing whether or not he would be offered a substantial scholarship to Kenyon. OP also posted that he wants to attend where he gets the most financial aid even though Columbia is his top choice. His custodial parent, his mother, doesn’t want to be locked into a binding ED agreement.</p>

<p>ED decisions are released far in advance of RD decisions, as you know. OP’s non-custodial parent wants OP to maintain his current ED status to Columbia.
Although I cannot answer your questions directly, the main issue revolves around finances & this is a major concern when applying ED because the applicant cannot compare financial aid packages.</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

Is there a consensus that applying ED to Columbia provides an admission advantage? (There’s no Common Data Set giving a definitive answer.) If yes, leave it ED. If no, is there an advantage in leaving it ED in this case, instead of changing to RD?

</p>

<p>Inasmuch as Columbia remains a school who believes in the value of “for your eyes only” and likes to present selective numbers, there are statistics that are … believable. Columbia admist about 2,400 students out of 32,000 applicants. Since the school also admits about 600 students out of about 3,000 ED applicants, the numbers work out to an overall admit rate of 8 percent overall, about 20 percent in the ED round, and an estimated SIX percent in the RD round.</p>

<p>When it comes to the Ivy League, the early acceptances are in the 20 percent range and the regular decision round ar about 8 percent. Statistically speaking, this intimates a clear advantage, especially in the ED round. </p>

<p>Of course, one might decide to believe the story that the early rounds are more selective, or stick to the different story confirmed by the research of Avery et al.</p>

[OrangeD00D]

<p>

@OHMomof2

What I would NOT do is ONLY apply ED to Columbia and wait for word on that before applying elsewhere. Other apps should be in process now so they can be in before merit scholarship deadlines.

</p>

<p>Right. I’m working on my Kenyon app right now and I will be submitting it before Dec 15.</p>

<p>

@intraparent

OP, I don’t think you have said what your major and career plans are… can you even fulfill them via Kenyon?

</p>

<p>I would like to do engineering or liberal arts, not sure which. Both Columbia and Kenyon offer programs for both (at Kenyon, it’s a 3-2 or 4-2 program for engineering, which I’m OK with and my parents are, too).</p>

<p>

@vonlost

Is there a consensus that applying ED to Columbia provides an admission advantage? (There’s no Common Data Set giving a definitive answer.) If yes, leave it ED. If no, is there an advantage in leaving it ED in this case, instead of changing to RD?

</p>

<p>That’s a good point. I think Columbia’s admission rate for ED is 20% compared to 8% typically, so I think there might be something there. I’ll read a bit more and see if my guess is correct.</p>

<p>

@Axelrod

vonlost: The issue arose because OP is going to apply RD to Kenyon in hope of receiving a substantial scholarship. OP’s original post feared being accepted to Columbia & then being required to withdraw his Kenyon application before knowing whether or not he would be offered a substantial scholarship to Kenyon. OP also posted that he wants to attend where he gets the most financial aid even though Kenyon is his top choice.

</p>

<p>Axelrod, while I appreciate your input, I am getting more and more skeptical that you even read my posts. I posted several times that Columbia is my number one choice. Kenyon is on my list but it is not number one, hence the reason I applied early to Columbia and not to Kenyon. While I would like to go where I get the most FA, I DID talk to my parents about it and they said that they’d be willing to pay a bit for me to go to Columbia given the prestige it has. </p>

<p>My mother has recently changed her tune. She wants me to apply to Kenyon because she seems sure I’ll get their scholarships, if not the full or half tuition then the other scholarships they also offer. While I’d like to get them, it’s not a sure thing. FA from Columbia is (the question is the amount). I can’t put Columbia on hold while I wait for Kenyon. </p>

<p>My mom’s plan is waiting to see what Kenyon and other schools will offer me, THEN act on Columbia, should I get in. My concern is to avoid this before it can even become an issue. I am sorry if I seem hostile, but I really want a solution, and you claim to want one, too, but continue to mess up the major details of my situation. </p>

<p>My father is coming to visit soon and I’ll discuss it with him shortly, then keep you guys posted.</p>

[JHS]

<p>It’s pretty hard to conclude that there isn’t an admissions advantage ED. The admissions advantage is much smaller than it looks, because the ED pool contains a couple hundred recruited athletes or development cases with, essentially, a 100% chance of admission, maybe a higher proportion of legacies than the RD pool, and stronger applicants overall than the RD pool. But even if you adjust for that, the admission rate is two or three times the admission rate in the RD round.</p>

<p>Last year, Columbia admitted about 600 in the ED round, out of 3,100 applications, and deferred an unspecified number. (I’ll use 1,500 as a reasonably conservative guess.) That’s close to 20%, although it’s more like 14% if you adjust for the recruited athletes. It had almost 29,000 RD applications, and probably about 30,500 in the RD pool counting the deferred EDs, and accepted somewhat fewer than 1,800, less than a 6% admission rate. If you assume the deferred EDs got admitted at at least the average rate (which is conservative), that adds another 3% to the real ED admit rate, making it 17%, vs. 6% RD. I’m willing to believe the ED pool is stronger than the RD pool, but not three times as strong. After all, there are a lot of people in the RD pool who were SCEA candidates at HYPS, and some who even were accepted at those schools, as well as great students whose advisors, like many here, told them they shouldn’t apply anywhere ED.</p>

<p>It’s not like less qualified applicants get accepted ED. I think it’s more like they accept a higher percentage of students they would be happy to accept.</p>

<p>EDITED TO ADD: Engineering at Kenyon? A 3-2 program? The OP should check on how many students actually go through with a 3-2 program there. If it’s like most colleges, the average will be fewer than one per year. 3-2 programs are marketing window-dressing.</p>

[Axelrod]

<p>OP: I’ve read your initial post. You need to relax & reread what you wrote. All posters are trying to help you. Opinions differ, but what you wrote & posted remains. Everything you quoted above from my most recent post came from your initial post in this thread.</p>

[Inpersonal]

<p>I applied to a lot of schools last year. All RD. Got accepted by a few top-10 National Us and a few top-10 LACs. The financial packages among very top universities differed quite a bit, even if all say that they “meet need” (more than $10K per year to be precise). I also got half-tuition merit offers from other reazonably good schools, close to Kenyon in terms of ranking, but they ended up not being cheaper than the good offers by the “meet need” schools after room, board, books, travel, and other expenses were factored in.</p>

<p>I know I am just one person, but my experience tells me that given today’s admission odds and financial aid variability, it is a good idea to apply to many schools RD, so as to play the odds, and to wait for their packages, so as to make a sound financial decision.</p>

[vonlost]

<p>“My mom’s plan is waiting to see what Kenyon and other schools will offer me, THEN act on Columbia, should I get in.”</p>

<p>In that case you MUST change Columbia to RD, lowering your chance of admission. If you don’t and are admitted ED, Columbia will cancel your admission when you don’t respond by their deadline, which is long before other schools’ RD dates.</p>

<p>The alternative, should you be admitted to Columbia ED, is to decide if their financial aid offer is affordable, and decline the offer if not, taking your chances with other schools at RD time.</p>

[OrangeD00D]

<p>

@JHS

EDITED TO ADD: Engineering at Kenyon? A 3-2 program? The OP should check on how many students actually go through with a 3-2 program there. If it’s like most colleges, the average will be fewer than one per year. 3-2 programs are marketing window-dressing.

</p>

<p>Good point. I’m still not sure about what I really want to do. Kenyon is really good for other things I’m also interested in, although engineering is something I’d like to do. </p>

<p>

@Axelrod

OP: I’ve read your initial post. You need to relax & reread what you wrote. All posters are trying to help you. Opinions differ, but what you wrote & posted remains. Everything you quoted above from my most recent post came from your initial post in this thread.

</p>

<p>I agree. I am sorry if I sounded too harsh or upset. Thank you for your input. </p>

<p>Anyways, I’ve talked to my father, and he said he’d like me to go to Columbia and would be OK with paying for it, basically, he hasn’t changed his opinion. Now it’s up to my mom, who I’ll talk to tonight. Push comes to shove, I’ll change my ED to RD and go from there. :)</p>

[lookingforward]

<p>Ha, intparent. I still have the Kenyon recruiting letter for D1 tacked up in her room. Signed by the coach. Happy they took notice. Happier she can let friends see that. She was distinctly not recruitable, not in anyone’s dreams. But, the letter is priceless.</p>

<p>I am glad OP weighed in and filled in blanks. Now: about “trusting” Dad: His comment that either 10k or 30k is still a great price for Columbia…is still not an indication he can afford this. What is he thinking? PPLoans? Or, he has the funds? </p>

<p>There is a point at which parent(s) and child have to face the numbers, step back- and think and breathe- before answering, “We’ll find a way.” What way?</p>

<p>If you say, look, Dad’s got the money, he’s wealthy or he’s got a college savings plan or whatever, so his perspective on our need for aid is different than Mom’s… that’s one thing. If he’s willing to foot more than Mom can afford, (the case for my divorced friend,) then that’s good. But just to have Dad make a blanket statement, based on we-don’t-know-what…leaves me uneasy.</p>

<p>My D2 applied ED- and based on our experience for D1, we had an idea of what sort of package she might get (long tale, but lots of weighing.) We knew, at that point, how we could either use our resources or take the PP loans and how we could manage the payments. We knew what the payments would be.</p>

<p>Get enough info. Good luck.</p>

[Erin_s_Dad]

<p>

My dad completed the apps with my help. We ran through the calculators and showed them to my mom, and we saw somewhere around $10k when inputting my parent’s finances sepeartely and $30k when inputting them together. My dad said either amount is a good deal, especially for a school like Columbia. I said the same to my mom and she agreed but also told me, “You’re going to wherever gives you the best deal.” I told her ED doesn’t work like that and again she gave me the “we can get out of it.” This is before I applied, but she still encouraged me to apply anyways, and I even asked her the last few minutes before submitting, “Are you sure you’re OK with ED?” and she said, “Yes.”

This is troubling. Sounds like mom is okay with ED if she can work it on her own terms, not those outlined in the agreement.<br>

I would like to do engineering or liberal arts, not sure which. Both Columbia and Kenyon offer programs for both (at Kenyon, it’s a 3-2 or 4-2 program for engineering, which I’m OK with and my parents are, too).

I’ve never been a big fan of 3/2 programs. The vast majority of students don’t want to leave their friends of three years before graduation. A 4/2 program solves this but leaves the parents to pay for 2 more years of school. If the OP is dead certain on engineering then Kenyon is not a good choice IMO. Hopefully the safety school has that covered.</p>

[Axelrod]

<p>Another thought: If you plan on going to graduate school, be sure to estimate the total amount of loans, if any, that you’ll be taking for both your undergraduate & graduate programs. The costs can be a bit shocking. Calculate your monthly loan repayment obligation keeping in mind that, under current law, student loans are non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. Good luck !</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>I wouldn’t hold my breath on that Kenyon full-tuition or half-tuition merit award, and I certainly wouldn’t withdraw an ED application to my first-choice school in anticipation of a big merit award from Kenyon.</p>

<p>According to its most recent common data set, Kenyon awards about $2.8 million a year in merit scholarship. Nothing to sneeze at for a small college, but remember, that’s for the entire student body, so it works out to an average of $700,000 per class. That’s enough to pay for about 16 full-tuition scholarships per class* if all the money went to full-tuition scholarships*. </p>

<p>Which, of course, it doesn’t. We know some goes to half-tuition scholarships. We also know from Kenyon’s CDS that in 2011, 81 freshmen received merit awards at an average dollar value of $12,123 (which works out to more like $981,000 for the entering class, but that’s probably because some merit awards are for a single year and/or some fraction of renewable awards don’t get renewed due to underperformance). So that likely means there were a tiny handful (1-5?) full-tuition awards, perhaps a slightly larger number (5-10?) half-tuition awards, and a bunch of awards that were much smaller. If there were 5 full-tuition awards and 10 half-tuition awards, that would account for close to 2/3 of the available money, leaving the remaining 1/3 of the pot to be split among the remaining 66 recipients at an average of about $3,000 apiece; so my guess is there are not as many as 5 full-tuition awards, nor as many as 10 half-tuition awards. </p>

<p>So, fewer than 15 full- or half-tuition merit awards, out of an entering class of 468. That’s about 3% of the entering class, or less. Those seem like pretty long odds.</p>

<p>That’s not to say it’s not worth pursuing, of course. It’s just not something I would ever count on, and certainly not something I’d radically revise my admissions strategy for. </p>

<p>The OP will either be accepted, rejected, or deferred by Columbia in the ED round. If rejected (statistically the likeliest outcome, given Columbia’s ED admit rate), he can pursue Kenyon and other schools in the RD round to his heart’s content. If deferred to the RD round, he will subsequently either be accepted, rejected, or waitlisted by Columbia in said RD round; if accepted he can do comparison shopping between Columbia and other schools (including Kenyon), and if rejected or waitlisted, he can still do RD-round comparison shopping between Kenyon and other schools (but not Columbia). If accepted ED at Columbia, he can either accept or reject the ED offer from his first-choice school based on the sufficiency of its FA offer. The only possible scenario under which he is arguably worse off as a consequence of applying ED to Columbia is if he’s accepted (somewhat unlikely) and receives a FA offer that his family can live with (likely, if admitted), but that is potentially smaller than some other school might hypothetically award (unknowable ex ante). But since Columbia is his first-choice school and ex hypothesis the FA offer is workable, it seems like the rational thing to do in that circumstance is to accept the bird-in-hand, and not worry about what might-have-been at some other school where the trade-off would be (possibly but far from certainly) more money v. whatever attributes made that school less attractive than Columbia to the OP in the first place.</p>

[Axelrod]

<p>@bclintonk: I assume that most posters in this thread understand & appreciate all of your points. However, I think that you did not address the main issue: If accepted ED to Columbia who decides what constitutes sufficient financial aid ? Almost by definition, Columbia’s offer, if based on FAFSA and/or similiar documents, will be deemed “sufficient” by them.</p>

<p>I agree that Kenyon’s postcard is primarily designed to increase applications & chances of a substantial scholarship award are uncertain & slight. Hopefully, OP doesn’t see the advice to withdraw his ED supplement to Columbia as any sort of endorsement of Kenyon, but, rather, as advice to apply to several financial safeties & matches.</p>

[vonlost]

<p>“If accepted ED to Columbia who decides what constitutes sufficient financial aid ?”</p>

<p>The family is the sole arbiter. From the ED agreement:

Should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible, the student may decline the offer of admission and be released from the Early Decision commitment.

</p>

<p>It doesn’t say the student may ask the school for permission to decline the offer. The financial aid applications don’t cover all aspects of a family’s finances. Schools already have (through, e.g., FAFSA and PROFILE) all the information they use to determine aid.</p>