Parents caring for the parent support thread (Part 1)

<p>Dharmawheel- your head must be spinning. You have been dealt some complex cards to play and it is always a challenge when the parent’s circumstances change and the “children” are the ones who have the broader perspective. I get checking in with your mother’s social worker and psychiatrist for practical input. Though my background is clinical/psychiatric, I have to say in this situation, perhaps right now it is best to focus on the way forward. Many of us have been manipulated by some family member or other, old patterns evaporate slowly, etc. Maybe consider some support for yourself as you navigate this, as many find it helpful. </p>

<p>If you aren’t sure yet, see what the options for a care facility for your mother are (I’d do the legwork independent of her to start), visit, see if there is a waiting list, etc. You want to be front-loaded for the right path, yet opting out of day to day drama and demands. If there are wait lists at the preferred facilities, determine exactly what is involved in getting on them. You usually can decline an opening if it doesn’t make sense at the time it becomes available, yet remain on the list. All that practical stuff can involve you having power of attorney. </p>

<p>It’s a roller coaster ride you can step off of to various degrees and if things unravel, you know an alternative awaits. Practice disengagement bit by bit and if your family is grounded, ask them to gently let you know when it’s all too much or they feel you are pre-occupied. Checks and balances. Vent all you need to here or with friends. We all know that this is sooner said than done. If you consider the positive relationships in your life and what makes them meaningful, you may find a yardstick for determining what you will do for your mother. One of my favorite parenting tools became a puzzled shrug as the kids got older. It had an implied question “now what are you going to do about it?”, without being provocative. You may not want to do this with your mother literally, just having this image in mind helps me realize that not every family dilemma is not mine to solve. It took a load off and diffused emotions. </p>

<p>I hope you can get some rest. This stuff takes it out of you! </p>

<p>I will mention this book again “Boundaries” by Dr Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend (1992). Subtitle is when to say yes, when to say no, to take control of your life.The three main sections are: what are boundaries; boundary conflicts; developing healthy boundaries.</p>

<p>Sending hugs @dharmawheel and hope you can overcome your difficulties; also make peace with yourself.</p>

<p>Boundaries is a fabulous book. I watched someone dear to me implement the principles in it and it changed his life - for the better. Mom, Dad and sister were very angry at him in the begining but that’s just because things were so unhealthy. They relied on him for everything (he is the younger sibling by about 15 years) and this book showed him ways to make things better for him and ultimately everyone else as they needed to learn to stand on their own two feet. </p>

<p>Yup, this book can be a game changer. I recommend it to anyone who needs to take back control in their life. </p>

<p>Many people like to help others they are caregivers. But the difference between caregivers and caretakers is when you do so at your own expense. Set those limits. Politely but consistently. You’ll get pushback but stay strong. Polite but consistent. One doesn’t have to be mean to set a limit.</p>

<p>Dharma, I was going back over the last 10 days of this and I was struck by this:</p>

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<p>What’s the fear? What could she do to you?</p>

<p>Las Ma, I am amazed that you went back through the thread and retrieved that remark. Thats remarkable, and thank you for taking the time to care. I will skip the pre-age 22 stuff. Oddly, I have been independent and self reliant, bookworm, and am certainly affected by my childhood but I dont feel “scared” For many years, her MD had her on a drug named Halcion. It had a deadening affect on her, she was like a lifeless doll. Nothing to fear. Photos of her from that time show her dull, totally tuned-out,lifeless. Drugs were changed;she became more normal. i can tell you exactly when the fear started. She stood up well during my fathers illness that led to his deathat age 78. .After he died she fell into a profound depression and was hospitalized. Released, clung to me, begged to be allowed to sleep in my basement ("ll be as quiet as a mouse!) I dragged her around with me everywhere, DD1 kung fu classes, DD2 dance classes. I knew this couldnt go on and another hospitalization was imminent. Then I told you about the night I pulled her out of the car in the exhaust-filled garage. That was about 8 years ago, my youngest was 3. I think that is where the fear set in. She was in a big psych hospital for months and her treatmentincluded (her third round)of ECT. Whatever new drugs they put her on made her confident and though she could drive and do all self-care, she was very sharp-tongued and critical. Things happened like the tipping of the waiter’s tray, the pushing me into a room to face a meaningless scolding ending with the absurd, “You have never loved!”, turning her back on me with a flourish. The fear is in realizing that I cannot–am afraid to-- respond or confront that kind of behavior, I only want it to go away. A simple example is the other day when she said to me I love you, I love your daughters, but I do not like your husband. A…hard to say…less fearful?..more foolish.?.. daughter would have asked Why? Why do you say that? What has DH done to you to deserve that? I said nothing. In fact, when I talked to her shrink yesterday night I asked him for his insight on this very exchange as we were discussing the codependency issue and I used the exchange I just defined as an example of whether codependency existed. His answer was nothing extraordinary or enlightening. He just said, No, just let things like that go. Your mother is a very difficult woman. But I cannot “negotiate” her into an AL. I would have to say, you are going, there is no other choice, I have power or attorney, I have your health care proxy and am named on all your bank accounts, and as your Informed Caregiver, I insist you go to AL. Then she would scream, hit me, and kick.</p>

<p>She did call last night, I did pick up, and we did have what turned out to be a quite-empowering to me exchange and shocking to her. I have to go out now, but since a few here continue to express kind interest, I will write it up later. It really is a funny story.</p>

<p>Dharma, don’t have time for a big reply now, but on the remark about your husband, I don’t think you should have asked “Why?” See my post #3511 above. Make it clear you’re just not going to listen to that cr*p anymore. You don’t have to. If you consistently do that, she’ll learn very quickly that if she wants access to you, she’ll have to keep a civil tongue in her head Really, it works. More later. </p>

<p>Apologies for going into all of this- but this conversation has really helped me understand some of my own predicament. I am personally grateful you shared; I’m sure others are, too.</p>

<p>Asking why she doesn’t like DH would have been an open ended question- inviting her to tell you why, go on in detail. Runs the risk you would have to sit there, listen, and- again- burn. And then hate yourself for burning, for not being effective. Been there. And if she brings up a prying or prodding topic herself, (eg, why does he xxx?, my mother is a world class master at that,) same thing. Don’t go there.</p>

<p>You can be gentle, but “Just Say No,” cut it off. “I’m sorry you feel that way”.is a classic response. (Closed-ended.) Yes, as LasMa notes, sometimes it has to go further. It can blowback the first time or two, sure. Have to say that. But if the comment is followed by problem behavior, you respond to that, too. “I’m sorry, we can’t talk about xxx. If you continue to yell at me, I am leaving.” Or, “I am walking away.” And you mean it. With little kids, they eventually learn. If you mother won’t learn, at least you have removed yourself from the immediate fireball.</p>

<p>“Fear of Guilt” and anticipating guilt overwhelming us moves many of us to keep judging ourselves- can I do more, I should, I can just endure this to keep her quiet. Or, “My gawd, what if-?” - and it adds up. Classic. Freudian, I think. We so fear being “responsible,” that we can’t see straight. You deserve to credit yourself for all the “right” you are doing or trying to do. And your good intentions. A psychiatrist clued me into that.</p>

<p>Last thing: mother to mother: my girls are adopted and we need to recognize that their need for us, some stability in their relationship with us, goes on a long time. They can try to be brave and go with the flow, but if one is about to leave the nest, it’s a tender time. My oldest is pretty fearless, but even now, at 23, I can see how she needs to know she can lean on me, whether or not she specifically asks for help. At least have some periodic, private “away from home” one-on-one mom-girl time when you can talk and reinforce bonds, for all the good reasons.
Best wishes.</p>

<p>Here’s the deal, Dharma. The behavior will not go away as long as you are willing to take it. Bullies push and push and push, until their victim says “No more.” So it’s up to you to make it stop. </p>

<p>When your mother says something nasty and you engage in any way – asking questions about what she said, defending yourself, anything at all – you are telling her that that’s an appropriate topic of conversation. Asking her “Why?” when she made the remark about your husband would only have invited her to spew more poison, as well as telling her that the remark was permissible in the first place. Which it was not.</p>

<p>I think you want to start sending the message “No, that is not OK to say, and I will not listen to it.” The most powerful way to send that message is to just physically remove yourself. Like I said, do that a few times, and she’ll have to decide whether or not she wants you in her life, and if she does, her behavior must change.</p>

<p>BTW, walking out on someone who’s talking may seem unforgivably rude, and it would be in most circumstances. But in my view, when someone is abusive, they have forfeited the right to common courtesy.</p>

<p>Dharmawheel, I know you work hard to protect your kids from your mother’s abusiveness and how it affects you. But I am sure they know or fear more than you think they do. The worst for me with my kid was if I was sad or angry or withdrawn due to crazy brother or dad issues and she thought there was something wrong that was her fault. Your girls are old enough, in my humble opinion, to be told that there are problems with grandma that make you upset sometimes but that you will take care of the problems and that they, your kids, are your priority.</p>

<p>(Too late to edit above)</p>

<p>I agree, LF, this discussion is very helpful to me too. While I haven’t had these exact issues, it is certainly illuminating some of my past reactions to things that have happened in my family. </p>

<p>And yes, Dharma, your mom will be irate when you first start standing up to her, so be forewarned. You’re changing the rules, taking some of her power away, and she won’t like that one little bit. But you also don’t have to listen to her irateness. Again, walk away. She’ll figure it out. </p>

<p>Great to come home to many helpful and fascinating comments. First, very glad to have support for not responding to the remark about my husband. I really questioned myself about whether I was being a coward, but it was frustrating to imagine a give-and-take conversation getting anywhere good or profitable for me or for my relationship with my mother. So that is a big plus. There have been times on the phone when I just don’t respond. Just blank air. She waits; if she wants to keep talking she changes the subject.</p>

<p>oldmom4896, DD3 is 11 and doesn’t care a wit, just doesn’t want to go to the NH (When we go I let her bring in her tablet. At home she reads and she skypes her friends and is completely tuned-out about Gma). Now, there is a history w/DD2 who is 16 and very intuitive. She has known much for a long time and we talk about it in a healthy way (But I have NOT told them about the suicide attempt–they were young enough then to believe that Gma was hospitalized for a “bad back.”) About two years ago my mother made the mistake to remark to DD2, “oh DD2, now you won’t be able to fit into my wedding dress” which DD2 interpreted quite rightly as Gma suggesting she had put on weight or was somehow “not skinny enough”. She is a very slender girl, just not the stick my mother was. Well, DD2 developed an eating disorder. She would only eat exact measurements of certain foods at certain times and would not stray from a highly-structured eating plan. She did not lose weight. She is a healthy weight. But she is smart and went online to a teenage forum about eating disorders and concluded on her own that she had an eating disorder, on her own she found a local teenage/eating disorder therapist (she even made sure the therapist took our insurance) and asked me to take her to the therapist. She has been seeing her for about a year. Her eating has gotten more varied and risk-taking and the therapist says they can wrap up this summer, unless DD2 just wants to keep coming. I hope she continues through HS. The therapist is young and highly skilled. DD2 needs help letting go of the idea she HAS to rank #1 in her class or the world will fall apart. Her GC is trying to get her off that idea, too. DD3’s mind has been opened about Gma these past 7/8 weeks because she has been home from college and sits with me and my husband as we talk over the day’s developments, my research, the whole picture. I think we are handling it in her presence so that she does not lose respect for Gma, but recognizes that there is a problem. She and I have had a few one-to-ones about things as they develop. </p>

<p>The SW just called me back and we talked about our meeting and my mother’s decision and whether I was “enabling” her. She was very on my side about bringing the Polish ladies to be interviewed because my mother KNEW 24/7 existed; I could not hide it from her. She stressed that it was very clear at the mtg that everyone was favoring AL and that my mother used the power of her choice to make her decision. The SW said, If your mother breaks her hip the first week the caregiver is there, that is because she made her choice, there is nothing you can do about it. BTW she said because of certain tests and stuff, my mother has a definite release day of Thurs.</p>

<p>Now, to my promise to relate last night’s conversation with my mother. I saw the caller ID and said, hi mom, hope you had a good day, can’t talk, Elisabeth said she’d call at 7:30 (E was at a sleepover pre-college type seminar). She said, I’ll only keep you a minute. I only wanted to say one thing. So, okay. She said, Tell Caregiver that when she comes to (name of our town) she cannot wear the kind of shorts she wore to the nursing home. I was shocked. I said Mom! First of all, I am not nor will be a go-between between you and Caregiver. If you have something to say to her, you say it yourself. But second, something much more important, is that there is nothing wrong with Caregiver’s shorts. They are the same shorts the ladies (in our town) wear. There is nothing wrong with them. And I am telling you, you are making a grave mistake if you think you can dictate to someone what kind of clothes she can wear, especially a poor single woman out of her own country, living on a limited income, to say nothing of the hurt and insult she would feel if you made such a remark. I am telling you, you got your way in the end, this whole process has been a huge undertaking of many people’s time and effort, and if you do anything, anything to undermine or endanger your relationship with Caregiver, I am out of the picture, you go straight to AL or a nursing home . Do I make myself clear? She said, very cooly, Well, you said what you said. Give my love to the girls. And we both said Bye! But the self-questioning never stops. Was I too harsh? Did I overdo it?</p>

<p>Couldn’t resist. Yes, I have more than once gotten up from the kitchen table and walked out the front door. We resume the next day as if nothing had happened.</p>

<p>April 2014 conversations:</p>

<p>Mom: Hi, what’s new?
Me. SIL (age only 68) had a massive heart attack this morning and is in intensive care.
Mom: Oh, she’ll be fine. Modern medicine performs miracles these days.</p>

<p>Mom: Hi, what’s new?
Me: We got a call at 4 am. SIL died.
Mom: Make sure you get back the painting I gave her. I don’t want it to fall into the wrong hands.</p>

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<p>It is absolutely true that your mother has the right to make an unwise decision. And you have the right to refuse to help her implement it. As I said upthread: Her decision, her responsibililty. So glad you insisted that SHE be the one to lay down the law about dress code (and it doesn’t matter who’s right or wrong; the point is she needs to deal with it, not you). </p>

<p>And this is totally awesome:</p>

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<p>Stick to your guns, and keep those guns handy, because it’s inevitable that this arrangement will go off the rails, sooner rather than later. </p>

<p>ETA – NO, you absolutely were NOT too harsh! In fact, nice boundary-drawing!</p>

<p>Glad for the feedback.</p>

<p>Just ordered the bk Boundaries from the library.</p>

<p>Can we make book on how long Caregiver lasts? This doesn’t sound like it will end well, if Mom already wants to dictate Caregiver’s clothing choices.</p>

<p>Way to stick to your guns, dharma.</p>

<p>This reminds me of a recent event.
I told my lifelong friend from childhood that I was stressed by my mother’s yelling at at me. Interestingly she said ‘Didn’t she always do that?’ I suddenly realized that she was absolutely right. I had gotten so used to it through the years that I did not even notice, but others knew all along. Within days out of no where my favorite Aunt growing up told me a story of how her MIL used to yell at her later in life - she said she told her ’ I will not be talked to like this’ and left the room. She said it worked. I am sure she was giving me a direct hint that I should do this. Mind you these two people I have know my whole life and it took them to open up my eyes to what I did not see. It was very nice of them to speak up when I did not ask.</p>

<p>I’m SO PROUD of you, DHARMA! You are GREAT to have said those things to your mom, as she HAS to hear it from you that you are not going to be her servant from here on. It is up to HER to make sure that all the hard work you and others have done will work out. Stick to what you said and print it out and repeat it to yourself and her as needed. Do NOT enable her further–make HER implement her plan and figure out what will happen if the caregivers quit on her because of her unreasonableness.</p>

<p>Good boundary to have drawn. Enlist your Ds and H to help you stick with the boundary you have drawn. All changes and consequences from your mom’s actions are on her to fix.</p>

<p>Dharma wheel- love that straight talk. Being matter of fact, telling it like it is and not getting emotionally entangled will serve you well. Of course, some exchanges will be distressing to you, but your mother doesn’t have to know it. You are on a roll! Hope your weekend offers some respite.</p>

<p>Easier said than done, but continue to disengage and be selectively deaf and busy when your mom is inappropriate and mean. She owes you civility if she wants your attention. It’s the least she can do and you and everyone are due this as a basic human right. </p>

<p>Bravo for standing up and being very factual. </p>